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New Alpinism

GR Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 115

The Zone 1 bulk cardio is meant to improve your bodies ability to produce ATP aerobically through the krebs cycle and increasing mitochondrial density. It is that simple. Run your heart rate much high than that and your body with will start using glycogen stores which produce a higher levels of lactate. More lactate will result in lower blood Ph which will lead to muscle failure and a slowed recovery.

Bulk low heart rate training is boring and time consuming, but extremely effective in all endurance sports.

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
GR Johnson wrote:The Zone 1 bulk cardio is meant to improve your bodies ability to produce ATP aerobically through the krebs cycle and increasing mitochondrial density. It is that simple. Run your heart rate much high than that and your body with will start using glycogen stores which produce a higher levels of lactate. More lactate will result in lower blood Ph which will lead to muscle failure and a slowed recovery. Bulk low heart rate training is boring and time consuming, but extremely effective in all endurance sports.
I buy all that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the effects of a pure zone 1 workout would be inactivated by following that workout with a pure zone 4 workout. An alternate possibility is that both pathways could be activated in parallel, just as when you eat a meal containing carbs, protein, and fat, three different digestive pathways are activated. To me ths is something that could only be demonstrated experimentally, not via thought experiment, and I was curious to know if anyone had hard data on it.

Luckily for me, by the way, I actually enjoy the Zone 1 training quite a bit...kind of meditative for me as opposed to boring.
beytzim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 30

Reference to mixing Zone 1 and Zone 3 same day: that would be a mistake. A better idea is to schedule your strength/weightlifting day with zone 3. Wait a couple of days between zone 3 and Zone 1.

I began the book's workouts a couple of weeks ago in training for Liberty Ridge. Assuming a max elevation gain of 4000' and pack weight of less than 45lbs, I've calculated the workouts below:

(my home hill is 1100' high and takes about 40 minutes to ascend and 20 minutes to descend. So a 3000' day is FOUR hours including approach time, pack filling/empyting, and food intake)

Week 1 (Mar 16):two days at zone 1, 2500' elevation. One strength session.

Week2 (mar23): two days at zone 1, 3000 elevation 22lbs. One day zone3 1000' 33lbs boots.

Week3(mar30): two days at zone 1, 3000 elevation, 27lbs. One day Zone 3 1000' 35lbs, boots. One strength session.

Week4 (apr6): two days zone 1, 3000 elevation 27lbs. One day zone3 1000' 38lbs boots.

Week5 (apr13): two days zone 1, 3500 elevation 27lbs, one day zone3 1000' 40lbs boots. One strength session.

Week6 (apr20): day1: zone1-2, 4000 elevation, 27lbs; day2: zone 3 2000 elevation, 35lbs, boots; day3: zone 1-2 duration one to two hours. One maintenance strength session.

Week7 (apr27): day1: zone 1-2, 4000 elevation, 27lbs; day2: zone3 2000 elevation, 42lbs, boots; day3: zone1-2 one to two hours.

Week8 (may4): day1 and day 2 back to back: zone 1-2, 3000' each day, 45lbs; Day3: zone 3, boots, 3000', 42lbs, day4: one hour zone 1-2. One maintenance strength session.

Week9 (may11): two or one day totaling 6000', 45lbs. Day 3: zone3 boots 3500', 45lbs. One strength maintenance session.

Week10 (May 18): taper: one or two long easy zone1-2 for the week

What do you guys think?

John Vanek · · Gardnerville, NV · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0

I've read the book and implementing much of it, especially the Killer Core and General Strength programs. It is a very good book, and the sidebars are interesting reading. Regarding the focus on Zone 1 base, periodization, and slowing building up time and intensity, the book follows a well-charted path. Anyone who has trained for long distance running, cycling, or triathlon should be familiar with the concepts. But buy the book.

Also, the book states the training log forms can be downloaded, but the site is not up yet. I sent Steve House a message and he replied they are working on it and promised to inform me when it is up. If I hear from him (plus I'm checking regularly) I'll post it here.

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67

Hey Johm, the weekly training log is on his personal website ( d284f45nftegze.cloudfront.n…), but the quarterly volume log isn't.

Started my transition period this week. Primarily going to focus on being able to feel and internalize the Zones, as I spent most of my previous training doing intervals, sprints, and weightlifting. Zone 1 was interesting today! I completed the Alpine Combine (and added calculated 1 RM for bench, squat, deadlife to assess overall strength): definitely need to improve on the box step.

The hardest part going forward will be finding suitable alternatives to gaining elevation: I'm close enough to spend a lot of weekends in the mountains, but not close enough to justify the drive for training. Or even to get into foothills type terrain.

Todd Cook · · Burlingame, CA · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 230

beytzim said: "I began the book's workouts a couple of weeks ago in training for Liberty Ridge. Assuming a max elevation gain of 4000' and pack weight of less than 45lbs, I've calculated the workouts below: (my home hill is 1100' high and takes about 40 minutes to ascend and 20 minutes to descend.
..snip...
What do you guys think?"

Max elevation gain of 4k?--I assume you mean per day, and a trip max of 11k.
What's the elevation you live at? Does your training take you above 10k? What's your experience above 11k? (Your ticklist on your profile here doesn't list any alpine experience.) How much acclimatization are you going to do?

I did Whitney and was a bit surprised; regular Baldy hikes to 10k, and occasional San Jacinto hikes to 11k did not prepare me adequately cardio-wise.

Although the Alpine book is laudable in that drives home, "if you want to climb with 20% body weight, you need to train with 20% body weight" it also emphasizes the importance of a good aerobic base and cross training.

You didn't tell use what your aerobic base was. That ascent and descent time on that hill seems slow.

Have you considered trail running that hill? Runners often use intervals like run 3 minutes, walk 1. For me, this bounce my heart rate into zone 2 and then lets me drop back to the bottom of zone 1. For steep fire roads hills, jog 30 seconds, walk 30 seconds can be challenging. But this follows trail runner/ marathoner advice (not mine, e.g. search Jeff Galloway). Trail running that hill would help fine tune your cardio.

Did you do the box step test? What were your results? that sounds like the perfect test for you. Okay, I confess, I myself still need to do the box step test.

Todd

Eric Bonin · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 40

thanks all for the great insight on this book. Being more of a skier and looking to do more ski mountaineering....How do you all feel the concepts in the book can translate to a more skiing centric goals?

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67
Eric Bonin wrote:thanks all for the great insight on this book. Being more of a skier and looking to do more ski mountaineering....How do you all feel the concepts in the book can translate to a more skiing centric goals?
The physiology of endurance and strength training, and therefore most of their advice, is the same. The key thing is to identify the appropriate exercises and modes for ski mountaineering in particular.

I think you would be in a good position to take the Basic Mountaineering periodization program and just do as much of your aerobic volume on skis as reasonable.

I should add that the advice on nutrition, altitude and acclimatization, and mental fitness would not change.
beytzim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 30

Todd, as per the book, you count the elevation gain per day. I am training specifically for a specific climb as per the book. Ascent times vary on type of terrain, gradient, and pack weight. I put up my program for programming advice and to show a real world example of following the book's methodology to the letter.

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
Optimistic wrote: I've actually been on a calorie-restricted diet for about 6 weeks. As I mentioned above, it had been going really well for several weeks and then hit a plateau, which suggested to me that I had gotten into a "fasted" state where the metabolism slows down quite a bit in order to squeeze every possible calorie out of the available intake. HIIT is felt to be a way to counter this fasted response and raise the metabolism. Prior to the HIIT/Zone 1 combo, the exercise was basically all Zone 3 (bike and treadmill) alternating with Recovery/Zone 1-ish (bouldering at the gym). Related or not, when the HIIT started, the weight loss plateau ended, with no change in caloric intake. Just sayin'.
Errr...am I missing something or could it just be that HIIT burns calories, leading to a bigger calorie deficit, leading to more weightloss?

In my experience, it's always come down to calories in vs. calories out. You cut calories or increase exercise, lose weight for a bit then plateau, repeat the above until you hit the desired weight.

I tend to have difficulty cutting calories below a certain point (feels like starving) so I prefer a blend of cardio / calorie restriction. I've tried both HIIT and zone 1 cardio and haven't noticed any difference except that HIIT seems harder to recover from. Then again I used to be a competitive distance runner so I think I'm probably just more accustomed to long, slow runs rather than sprints. YMMV
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Ryan Watts wrote: Errr...am I missing something or could it just be that HIIT burns calories, leading to a bigger calorie deficit, leading to more weightloss? In my experience, it's always come down to calories in vs. calories out.
Yep, you are missing something! The current thought, at least among some quarters of the exercise physiology world, is that HIIT (things equal in intensity to an all out sprint for 30-60 seconds, can be biking, calisthenics, swimming, etc) induce a stress response which lasts for some period of time beyond the actual workout. As a result, when compared to "standard" cardio regimens, something like 5x1min of sprints had a similar impact on fitness to standard regimens lasting an hour or more. In other words, HIIT is much more effective per unit time for weight loss, improvement of blood pressure, aerobic capacity and so on...

This article about it is from the popular press (seems more targeted to fitness models than to climbers!), but the research articles he cites at the bottom are from serious academic journals (eg Circulation)
builtlean.com/2010/06/04/hi…

However, more to the point of this discussion, House and Johnston write on p.301 that "Mixing in more high-intensity exercises such as strength training with your endurance will ramp up your metabolism, resulting in more calories burned."

Combining those two sources, that's how I decided to put in some Zone 4 instead of Zone 2. As I said before, the observations of the number on my own scale suggest that it was an effective change. I sure do plan on getting rid of it as soon as I've hit my weight target, though: sprints are effing painful!

The other point to consider is that in contrast to your "exercise is exercise" equation (which is exactly what I also thought until I read this book), essentially the central point of this whole book is that different training stresses yield different training effects. This is why Twight goes on at such length in his TINSTAAFL article about how, while he was working very hard at CrossFit in the gym, he was applying the wrong stress, and so not getting the results he wanted.

So in that light, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that two different exercises, each requiring equal amounts of energy (calories) to complete, might have different effects on the metabolism over the long term.
jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165

I agree that HIIT workouts are a potent tool for improving fitness and metabolism. The key is actually doing them hard enough. You should absolutely think you are going to die. If you don't have mental doubts about your ability to complete the exercises halfway through the training session, you probably aren't going hard enough.

In cycling, there is a particular measurement device (power meter) that provides instantaneous feedback about output that is more or less invariant to other factors. This is great for HIIT compared to using heart rate since heart rate adjusts too slowly to be informative for efforts less than a few minutes. One common reaction cyclists have when getting a power meter is "I thought I was doing Zone X, but I was actually doing Zone X-1!".

This is one virtue of the Crossfit world - the competitive environment is a good motivator for some folks.

The book hits on this topic as well - doing your easy workouts easy, and doing your hard workouts hard. Many endurance athletes have a tendency to go at the same intensity all the time, and this can be a tough habit to break.

Sean S. · · Thornton, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 10

I have recently begun my trainsition week after finishing moving to denver from chicago. The Zone 1 stuff is a new level for me as well, even after spending many years running distance competitively. I have been wearing a heart rate monitor as well as using the nose breathing limit to maintain proper training zone. However, I have begun to notice that the longer my run goes on The heart rate corresponding to when I need to breathe through my mouth and slow down to be able to breathe through my nose again goes up. At the start of my runs itll be around the high 140s, but by the end I can breathe thru my nose with the same effort as earlier with a HR around 165. Anyone else seen this, did I miss something in the book, or is my big schnozz allowing me to cheat?

Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
Sean S. wrote:I have recently begun my trainsition week after finishing moving to denver from chicago. The Zone 1 stuff is a new level for me as well, even after spending many years running distance competitively. I have been wearing a heart rate monitor as well as using the nose breathing limit to maintain proper training zone. However, I have begun to notice that the longer my run goes on The heart rate corresponding to when I need to breathe through my mouth and slow down to be able to breathe through my nose again goes up. At the start of my runs itll be around the high 140s, but by the end I can breathe thru my nose with the same effort as earlier with a HR around 165. Anyone else seen this, did I miss something in the book, or is my big schnozz allowing me to cheat?
Mine seems to stay the same throughout the workout, with the nose-breathing boundary at around 73% of maxHR. My sinuses are always a little stuffy, though...
FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67

How are you folks accounting for strength and climbing volumes? Only the time under exertion, or the rest time as well? I come from a strength training background, so I think of volume in terms of pounds lifted, not as a function of time. I see strength and climbing time, if including rests, quickly eating into the volume necessary for aerobic training. Thoughts?

kboofis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 20
Sean S. wrote:I have recently begun my trainsition week after finishing moving to denver from chicago. The Zone 1 stuff is a new level for me as well, even after spending many years running distance competitively. I have been wearing a heart rate monitor as well as using the nose breathing limit to maintain proper training zone. However, I have begun to notice that the longer my run goes on The heart rate corresponding to when I need to breathe through my mouth and slow down to be able to breathe through my nose again goes up. At the start of my runs itll be around the high 140s, but by the end I can breathe thru my nose with the same effort as earlier with a HR around 165. Anyone else seen this, did I miss something in the book, or is my big schnozz allowing me to cheat?
Sounds like heart rate drift

myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak…
Optimistic · · New Paltz · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 450
kboofis wrote: Sounds like heart rate drift myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak…
That's really interesting, I'd never heard of that... And the respiratory rate I guess stays the same because the tachycardia is not a response to hypoxia, but to hyperthermia or hypovolemia?
Sean S. · · Thornton, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 10
kboofis wrote: Sounds like heart rate drift myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak…
Holy crap that answers so much, I dont know why I kept talking to doctors about weird effects when ibwas still racing when apparently I just needed to post on MP... and im dead serious with that, that answers a lot, thanks!
kboofis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 20
Sean S. wrote: Holy crap that answers so much, I dont know why I kept talking to doctors about weird effects when ibwas still racing when apparently I just needed to post on MP... and im dead serious with that, that answers a lot, thanks!

Hah yeah, the power of internet strangers!

Anyone experience their Zone 1 increasing since they've began training? Mine is so slow when I go for a run it's a little disheartening
Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143

Zone 1 pace? Mine is up from 12 to about 9 minutes/mile in rolling city terrain after three weeks of running 2-4 hours a week. I am pretty deconditioned though, if you're already kind of fit you won't see gains like that.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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