Does anyone actually use a mountaineering axe?

TheBirdman wrote: As has been evident to me on numerous occasions, on low angle terrain poles and crampons function just as well as an axe and crampons. For anything that gets steep enough that poles aren't sufficient, I like two tools with my hands directly under the picks "punching" placements instead of swinging. I find this is much more efficient and I can move much more quickly. Instead of trying to walk up steep snow as my friend with the axe does, with two tools it becomes more like slab climbing and I can move much more quickly and ascend much steeper terrain.

I don't like not having an ax out when it gets past 45 degrees, i would not be comfortable with poles. they have no function as a self arrest tool.
At 45 degrees, if am "punching placements" then i would be leaned over a lot. This is bad for two reasons, first it is much slower, pain in the ass( i am taller). Second, it shifts the weight forward off my crampons, which decreases the power of crampons.

also, when you have your hands just below the base of the ax, how does the self arrest work? Where do your hands go? when you fall?

Yes, the mountains are totally unpredictable..THat's why I remain a low-land gorilla. It sounds as if you have already run through all possible arguments, and have reached a decision regarding bring your tools. I've always preferred to be prepared for anything, and a large part of that is confidence in using the hardware you have, in epic situations. So....go for worst case scenario, bring the kitchen sink, and you'll be ready!

TheBirdman wrote: Why would you use an axe on low angle terrain instead of poles? As has been evident to me on numerous occasions, on low angle terrain poles and crampons function just as well as an axe and crampons. For anything that gets steep enough that poles aren't sufficient, I like two tools with my hands directly under the picks "punching" placements instead of swinging. I find this is much more efficient and I can move much more quickly. Instead of trying to walk up steep snow as my friend with the axe does, with two tools it becomes more like slab climbing and I can move much more quickly and ascend much steeper terrain.

If you slip on a 30 degree slope that is firm neve and using ski poles (with a whipette) the ski poles are probably not going to help stop you whereas an axe will. As said I often use a technical tool and ski pole but if for a long slope I am hunching over frequently if I want to plunge it. That moves one's center of balance away from being over one's feet which is not desirable.

As for the technique you are describing, it is basically called caning. When canning you would be plunging the spike instead of the picks. It works and you can move reasonably fast. But it takes it's toll on your calves and here again you are hunched over. Being more upright, French Technique actually takes less effort but as you note is not as fast. So if I have my choice of canning or doing French Technique or canning up 1000 feet of 45 slope. I'll be using French Technique as much as possible.

James Hicks wrote: Sometimes, but I can't self arrest with poles. I wouldn't consider anything in the 30-45 degree range steep IMO, but I sure wouldn't want to try and self arrest with a pole in that situation.

I could also argue the possibility of a fall requiring a self arrest is greatly decreased with two tools. I agree, self arresting with a pole would not work, but avoiding having to self arrest in the first place is the best strategy so being more secure with two tools seems to reduce that probability.

matt c. wrote: I don't like not having an ax out when it gets past 45 degrees, i would not be comfortable with poles. they have no function as a self arrest tool. At 45 degrees, if am "punching placements" then i would be leaned over a lot. This is bad for two reasons, first it is much slower, pain in the ass( i am taller). Second, it shifts the weight forward off my crampons, which decreases the power of crampons. also, when you have your hands just below the base of the ax, how does the self arrest work? Where do your hands go? when you fall?

I disagree with this. I don't think it is slower at all. It is German technique versus French. By leaning forward you are front pointing and getting good purchase and upward thrust off your front points. Also, as I noted earlier, I find it is much easier to "slab climb" using your hands instead of trying to walk upright. To make another comparison to slab climbing, if your weight and momentum are forward, you are not only moving faster, you are actually safer as you are generating friction by pressing into the wall.

Allen Sanderson wrote: If you slip on a 30 degree slope that is firm neve and using ski poles (with a whipette) the ski poles are probably not going to help stop you whereas an axe will. As said I often use a technical tool and ski pole but if for a long slope I am hunching over frequently if I want to plunge it. That moves one's center of balance away from being over one's feet which is not desirable. As for the technique you are describing, it is basically called caning. When canning you would be plunging the spike instead of the picks. It works and you can move reasonably fast. But it takes it's toll on your calves and here again you are hunched over. Being more upright, French Technique actually takes less effort but as you note is not as fast. So if I have my choice of canning or doing French Technique or canning up 1000 feet of 45 slope. I'll be using French Technique as much as possible.

Allen, I have used caning before but that is actually not what I was talking about. I'm talking about instead of gripping the handle of the ice tool, slide your hand directly under the pick. On semi-steep slopes (45-60 degrees) I find placing my hand under the pick and punching the picks is extremely fast, efficient, and secure. Admittedly, this varies on conditions and this technique is not recommended for soft and unconsolidated snow. However, you make a good point. When the terrain gets to too steep for poles, but not steep enough to warrant "swinging tools" caning is an ideal middle ground whereby you turn the tools around plunge the spike on the bottom of the shaft. Yet another way it seems to me two tools are vastly superior to a mountaineering axe.

Maybe the better question is, why aren't you using a rope?

TheBirdman wrote: I could also argue the possibility of a fall requiring a self arrest is greatly decreased with two tools. I agree, self arresting with a pole would not work, but avoiding having to self arrest in the first place is the best strategy so being more secure with two tools seems to reduce that probability.

One could but I am not sure one should because there are many factors. As many have said short tools changes one's body position which is not always optimal and can make one less stable and secure.

That said it you are always traveling with two tools then your technique with one tool is going to suffer. So what happens when you lose one of your two tools?

If you really ski lines that take 2 vipers to climb, 1 you need a sponser or 2 you need to learn how to climb. unless you like being hunched over for hours on end. You cant beat venoms for coulior climbs... what if you slipped while you had your ski poles out? Ever self arrested with vipers? How would you stop with a tool in each hand? I bet youd rip your shoulder out of socket / rip of your hands, Thats why mtn axes arent as sharp. But you've made up your mind, so I really dont why you posted anything anyways...

Allen Sanderson wrote: So what happens when you lose one of your two tools?

Spinner leashes.

TheBirdman wrote: I disagree with this. I don't think it is slower at all. It is German technique versus French. By leaning forward you are front pointing and getting good purchase and upward thrust off your front points. Also, as I noted earlier, I find it is much easier to "slab climb" using your hands instead of trying to walk upright. To make another comparison to slab climbing, if your weight and momentum are forward, you are not only moving faster, you are actually safer as you are generating friction by pressing into the wall.

I have climb like this, but only when the snow steeps up to the point where I feel front pointing is necessary. But even then I don't generally feel the need for a second tool. And you can't make a blanket statement, or at least imply that, you are always safer front pointing. Because that is false. Do you downclimb couloirs like this?

TheBirdman wrote: Allen, I have used caning before but that is actually not what I was talking about. I'm talking about instead of gripping the handle of the ice tool, slide your hand directly under the pick. On semi-steep slopes (45-60 degrees) I find placing my hand under the pick and punching the picks is extremely fast, efficient, and secure. Admittedly, this varies on conditions and this technique is not recommended for soft and unconsolidated snow.

I understood the technique you are using. I do the same except instead of grabbing the shaft I grab the hammer or adze. Basically a form of canning in that one is not swinging the tool but placing it while holding somewhere near the head. However, I use the technique with technical tools and a mtneering axe.

As for the spinner leashes - come on man, think outside the box here. For what ever reason ya got one tool. Don't give an excuse why it won't happen to ya. Someday day it will.

TheBirdman wrote: I disagree with this. I don't think it is slower at all. It is German technique versus French. By leaning forward you are front pointing and getting good purchase and upward thrust off your front points. Also, as I noted earlier, I find it is much easier to "slab climb" using your hands instead of trying to walk upright. To make another comparison to slab climbing, if your weight and momentum are forward, you are not only moving faster, you are actually safer as you are generating friction by pressing into the wall.

haha ok. to each there own. Have you tried a mountaineering ax? I mean i could swap a motor in a car with a Letterman and an adjustable wench, i just wouldn't try convince you that it works better than a nice set of snap-ons.

also, while punching, were do your hands go to self arrest?? do you just hold on tight and hope for the best?

Reid Kalmus wrote:If you really ski lines that take 2 vipers to climb, 1 you need a sponser or 2 you need to learn how to climb. unless you like being hunched over for hours on end. You cant beat venoms for coulior climbs... what if you slipped while you had your ski poles out? Ever self arrested with vipers? How would you stop with a tool in each hand? I bet youd rip your shoulder out of socket / rip of your hands, Thats why mtn axes arent as sharp. But you've made up your mind, so I really dont why you posted anything anyways...

Dreamweaver to Dragon's Egg? What if you're not climbing the couloir you plan to ski?

It seems the big argument for mountaineering axes is that they are more comfortable for some because of the body position they require vs. the hunched over nature of using tools and self-arresting. In regards to body position, I guess that is personal preference. I have a hard time believing people are more comfortable trying to stair master up a steep slope vs. using their hands, but hey, to each their own on that one. In my own anecdotal experience (and it seems every decent alpine climber's experience) you can move much faster with two tools. You can head up steeper terrain, more securely although you do possibly sacrifice some level of comfort if your body is not used to that position. For anything where the tools are too short and the angle is too low, it seems some people prefer an axe to poles, which again, to each their own I guess even if I think poles are superior in "walking" situations.

In regards to self-arresting though, I think it's pretty funny that everyone is acting like self-arresting with a tool is impossible whereas with an axe, it's pretty much automatic. First of all, I think the emphasis should be on not falling first and foremost. If you have to self-arrest, you've already screwed something up pretty badly. I feel 1,000x more secure with two tools than with one, thereby avoiding the need to self arrest in the first place. Secondly, I use spinner leashes, which, while not rated to hold a fall, I would imagine a slip with a small fall factor onto two well placed tools would in fact hold, however, the likelihood of having two tools and two crampons blow seems really small, especially when leaned forward in the position others in this thread seem to think is so uncomfortable. Finally, I point to this video as evidence of how "easy" it is to self arrest with a mountaineering axe. Of all the people on this thread who have argued the self-arrest angle, how many of you have actually done it? Furthermore, if you have actually self-arrested (and I'd imagine most of you arguing this point have not actually done it in practice) how many times? If you've really fallen in a couloir more than once, don't you want to reassess what you're doing and what gear you're using?

gearjunkie.com/crazy-crevas…

matt c. wrote: Have you tried a mountaineering ax?

I have and it works fine between 35-50 degrees assuming there is no ice or rock and the angle remains consistent.

Lil Wayne, I mean Birdman, how old are you? How long have you been climbing? Have you had a traditional mountaineering axe before and used it a lot, or did you just start out with the tech tools?

This thread should titled "Try and disagree with me that you should not use a mountaineering axe under any circumstances, so that I can tell you why you're wrong".

James Hicks wrote: Do you downclimb couloirs like this?

Yes. Or ski them. Do you French technique down a couloir? No wonder you're worried about needing to self arrest.

There are no always in climbing, but as a general rule, I don't think it's a stretch to say front pointing with two tools is going to more secure than side-stepping with one axe. I also don't think it's a stretch to say that assuming decent physical condition of the climber, you'll move much faster using the former technique compared to the latter. If you really are concerned about endurance and fatigue, French technique is probably less taxing, but also likely extends the climb time wise, which has it;s own set of concerns.

TheBirdman wrote: In my own anecdotal experience (and it seems every decent alpine climber's experience)..... Of all the people on this thread who have argued the self-arrest angle, how many of you have actually done it? Furthermore, if you have actually self-arrested (and I'd imagine most of you arguing this point have not actually done it in practice) how many times? If you've really fallen in a couloir more than once, don't you want to reassess what you're doing and what gear you're using?

hahahhahahahah your my favorite

jaredj wrote:Lil Wayne, I mean Birdman, how old are you? How long have you been climbing? Have you had a traditional mountaineering axe before and used it a lot, or did you just start out with the tech tools?

28. Climbing 10 years. Started sport climbing, than into trad, than into alpine, then into ice, now moving into winter/alpine. First axe was a BD Raven, then two Venoms, now two Vipers. Have demo'd every other type of ice tool out there.

This thread should be titled "Try to tell me what a mountaineering axe does that an ice tool doesn't do adequately plus 100 other things that may be required in the mountains". Believe it or not, I'm actually open to the idea of a mountaineering axe if someone can show me one area where it will exceed the performance of a tool. I could ask you the same thing. Have you ever climbed ice? Used ice tools? I've personally used both and asked a question about the pros and cons because I'm failing to see the benefit of an axe. Your best response relates to self-arresting (meaning your concerned about a fall, something I'm not with two solid tools and leashes) and debating whether your too hunched over to climb comfortably. I'm 6'2 and don't feel uncomfortable, but that's a personal preference. Maybe this is because I was an ice climber before I was a snow-slogger so it's a matter of perspective but you dismiss my responses as fast or faster than I point out holes in your argument.

Again, maybe it's just the perspective. I want to be able to summit in any condition regardless of the obstacles. It sounds like the people who argue for mountaineering axes are more comfortable turning around if the terrain gets too technical for their gear. To each their own I guess. If you're a snow slogger (like my friend) and the snow slog turns more technical, you call it a day. If you're a climber and the snow slog turns more difficult, you're psyched you have the right gear to continue.

As for dropping a tool, then I'd be mixed climbing; one tool and one hand most likely. I still don't feel like one technical tool is going to be all that different from one mountaineering axe. You're in the same situation as with one mountaineering axe or arguably a bit more capable to move over mixed terrain.