Reepschnur Rappel Inquiry

rgold wrote:The reepschnur method is nearly as old as rappelling.

Spot on, rgold.

pull cord in 1872 edition of Scrambles Amongst the Alps by Whymper

That's wild. Those early climbers were smart if someone hadn't brought the reepschnur to my attention I dont think I would have ever thought of it.

The Stoned Master wrote:I played with this last night. Of course testing/practicing on bolts on a home wall isn't remotely the same as actually being out in the elements, fatigued, sharp rock, etc. With that said an alpine butterfly (for the biner block) and a locking carabiner together worked nicely (again at ground level with me jumping and pulling to test doesn't mean much in the way of overall experience). It pulled easier than 2 ropes joined as in the usual setup (I tested for ease of pull for comparison). I'm not saying ill use this in any environment all the time but it'll be used by me I'm sure. A good method to have "in your tool belt." I'm going to practice this weekend outside on bolts at Old Rag to see and if it works Ill bring it to the gunks and seneca and see how that goes. If you wrap your friction hitch around both strands (6mm and rappel line) or just control the pull line really carefully somehow and with an alpine butterfly biner block this setup appears to be smooth (not gonna comment on safe as I havent used it yet).

the prussic should only be on the loaded strand,below the ATC, if you use one

HOWEVER one safety issue is that on diagonal, overhanging rappels ... make sure to clip the pull line to yourself somehow ... otherwise it might swing out of reach

also when cutting the pull line at the store ... remember to get it 10% longer than your rope ... as the rope will stretch under body weight anywhere form 5-10%

If I ever carry an extra rope, I make it a thin half rope. Why carry 60m 6mm of accessory cord when you can carry 60m of 7.5mm cord and have the ability to climb on it. If you really want to go light then full half rope technique is best.

Solid point patto.

mark felber wrote:For anyone who's wondering: traditionalmountaineering.o… .

Sadly, the image labeled "right" shows the backup knot tied in the tag line.

rgold wrote: 1. You are pulling your rappel with a 6mm line. If the rappel is hard to pull, gripping and pulling such a thin cord will make everything much harder, and yes, the biner around the bigger line can add friction to the system and so make everything a lot worse. How much worse depends on the angle of pull; diagonal rappels will have the most resistance. You might have to install prussiks on the 6mm line to enable you to pull on it effectively. 2. If your rappel hangs up after it comes free of the anchor, you are left with a 6mm line, which is to say you are left with nothing and may then need a rescue. 3. I'm always amused that people who complain that 8.5mm half ropes tangle too much then go out and use the reepschnur method with a 6mm tag line. When it comes to tangling, you ain't seen nothin' until you get a tag line properly clusterf#cked.

I have tried this technique twice, and my ropes got stuck twice. The first time the wind blew the tag line around a bulge creating impossible friction. The second I clipped a directional 25ft below the anchors on a 100ft climb, when the time came to pull it, the carabiner clipped round the rap line hung up on the directional. It leads me to believe that the technique where you clip the rope back onto itself cannot be used with directionals, the method where just the carabiner stops the rope from going through the chains would work much better.
I'm getting rid of mine, I'd prefer a half rope in these situations for next time.

Maybe you're already doing this but I'll throw it out there since the three of us last weekend did it. Why not lead on one single and have the second trail the the second rope? I've always used doubles but thought this was a great idea of you don't have doubles and need to do 60M raps.

My thoughts:

1. I have used the method many times.
2. I would only do it with the blocking safety carabiner, and that needs to be a locker (unlike the one in the first photo in the thread).
3. I don't tie a fig 8 or a butterfly but a clove hitch onto the carabiner itself.
4. I've used everything from 5mm static to the other half of an 11mm single - the thinner the pull line the more of a pain it is to pull and not to get a mess in any wind.
5. On long complex raps in the hills it is a joke.
6. On a single rap of the back of a summit, it can be just the job.
7. I often use it when rope soloing as weight can be a real issue.
8. To me, twins are a better solution unless you are belaying with a grigri and using a microtrax to simul-climb.

I use this method for rapping with a grigri during or after bigwalls most of the time, both with a thin tag line or a second full-sized rope. As long as you alway tie to rope to itself as a backup (as has been shown upthread) this works through biners, rap-links, slings, etc. (Slings are less desireable because it's much harder to pull the cord back through if the knot passes through the sling and engages the backup)

Main problem I've had is what Rgold posted,

rgold wrote:When it comes to tangling, you ain't seen nothin' until you get a tag line properly clusterf#cked.

Used it a fair bit. Works fine but screwing it up would be a negative life experience (just like a regular rappel).

For everyone suggesting to have the follower drag the second cord that's a great recipe to get it stuck. If the leader drags it's easier for the second to clean any snags.

On a multi pitch repel, i plan my repel on the way up. I frequently solo climb and must carry a lot more on my rack for multiple anchor builds so the last thing i need is another rope. Look for horns, opening, or through points to thread some cordelette on the way up, this way you can do a multi point abseil with a doubled over 60 meter and get off most mountains leaving only a few dollars of 6 Mill cordelette behind. If i am worried about drag or snagging pulling my lead through the cordelette, i also carry some screw gate C links from Home Depot or walmart rated 5,000 pounds for about $3.50 and run my lead through this. For ridundancy on you repel anchor, double up. That simple. Typicaly i do one and one for a clean pull and a redundant backup and only costs about $5 at best to bail on. Worst case there is no where to thread a cordelette, and it happens, i try to use my oldest 2 wires. This way i justify it with the need to replace anyways. If i realy am on a tight budget and refuse to bail on gear, i plan my hike out. This is the safest and most economical way i have found imaginable. Being solo and not of deep pockets, i have tried a lot of options, some of which where questionable as if i would be able to climb tomorrow due to the inevitable new friendship i was proposing to make with the deck due to the sketchy arrangement i had above.

I'll never understand why people use quick links not made for life-saving applications for $4 at Home Depot when you can buy a biner for $4 from a climbing store and a strip of duct tape if you MUST have it be a locker. Hell you can find locking biners for $5 easily. Then at least you have an extra biner if you need one.

MTKirk wrote:The Reepschnur works fine as long as you know it's limitations. Personally after using a few different methods, I've settled on the "Carabiner Block" technique. This is simply a clove hitch on the spine of a carabiner (I use a Petzel Attache screw gate). You do have to have a hard ring for the carabiner to block against, but a 'biner block will work well with many different pieces of hardware (rap ring, chain links, locking carabiners, rapid links). I always carry a couple of rapid links (and sometimes rap rings) with me, they're cheap and useful for many things. I do recommend keeping your small pull line on your harness, saddle bag style, to keep tangles to a minimum. Many times I will saddlebag the rap line as well (rap line right side, pull line left). A really good idea is to extend your rappel device and use an auto-block back up, in case you have to stop and work out tangles. Carabiner dropping IS NOT a problem. It only falls a few feet, if at all. Your carabiners probably take more abuse jangling around on your harness.

Even though it was this thread mountainproject.com/v/edk-o… that inspired me to come here, but I thought I'd ask my question over here because it's part of this thread: This carabiner block method looks bomber to me...anyone have a problem with it? (Note, no need to reiterate your objections to tag lines in general if you have them, just interested in objections to the carabiner block!)

Mr B wrote: Sadly, the image labeled "right" shows the backup knot tied in the tag line.

Not sure if I understand your post, but it seems like you think the picture is wrong and that the backup knot should be on the rappel line.

The backup knot + carabiner is there in case the EDK/Butterfly Knot (or whichever is used to join the cord and rappel line) slips goes through the rappel rings -- if this happens, the backup knot + carabiner should get caught in the rappel rings to save you.

If you put a backup knot in the rappel line, it will not be backing up anything as it is in "front" of the rappel rings. It has to be "behind" the EDK/Butterfly Knot to act as a backup.

I've done this method a few times. It's pretty cool. Make sure you are on slab, with no features to catch on the pull down. Always back it up with a locking biner.

WillK wrote: Not sure if I understand your post, but it seems like you think the picture is wrong and that the backup knot should be on the rappel line. The backup knot + carabiner is there in case the EDK/Butterfly Knot (or whichever is used to join the cord and rappel line) slips goes through the rappel rings -- if this happens, the backup knot + carabiner should get caught in the rappel rings to save you. If you put a backup knot in the rappel line, it will not be backing up anything as it is in "front" of the rappel rings. It has to be "behind" the EDK/Butterfly Knot to act as a backup.

A bit late, but I wanted to clear up this confusion - what Mr B meant is that the backup knot should be tied using the rappel rope, not the tag line. It looks almost identical, with the carabiner still going around the rappel strand.

The difference is that it *should* go rappel strand -> through the links -> figure 8 on a bight clipped around the rappel strand -> knot joining the two ropes together. The current picture shows rappel strand -> through the links -> knot joining ropes -> bight clipped around the rappel strand.

The difference is small but potentially significant. The pictured setup adds an extra point of failure in the system - the knot joining the ropes. If the EDK failed, you'd die. In the correct setup alluded to by Mr B, even if the EDK joining knot failed, the backup would engage correctly.

Byron Marohn wrote: A bit late, but I wanted to clear up this confusion - what Mr B meant is that the backup knot should be tied using the rappel rope, not the tag line. It looks almost identical, with the carabiner still going around the rappel strand. The difference is that it *should* go rappel strand -> through the links -> figure 8 on a bight clipped around the rappel strand -> knot joining the two ropes together. The current picture shows rappel strand -> through the links -> knot joining ropes -> bight clipped around the rappel strand. The difference is small but potentially significant. The pictured setup adds an extra point of failure in the system - the knot joining the ropes. If the EDK failed, you'd die. In the correct setup alluded to by Mr B, even if the EDK joining knot failed, the backup would engage correctly.

Ah ok I understand Mr B's concern now.

However, I'm still a little confused about the execution. So in your description, the figure 8 on a bight is the knot that is closest to the rings, right? Therefore, it would be the "first line of defense" against the rope pulling through the rings. In this case, the EDK would be the backup to the figure 8 on a bight. Am I understanding correctly? Maybe a picture would be useful.

I would think that if you wanted to back up the EDK using the rappel line, you'd tie a figure 8 on a bight with the long tail of the EDK and then clip that through the rappel strand.

Between these 2 options:

(a) biner clipped to the rappel side of the rope

(b) biner not clipped to the rappel side of the rope

I understand (a) is more likely to get stuck when pulling, whereas (b) requires being 100% sure the biner cannot fit through the rap ring.

Are there any additional considerations / tradeoffs ?  (between these 2 biner block options - not asking about twins / doubles etc)

Looks like a recipe for the knot rolling over those short tails