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AAC and Gunks Camping

Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365
lucander wrote:I'm with ya on the $ per day equation, but many of my best trips were $75-$150/day. Just about any weeklong trip will tally to that amount once airfare and rental car is factored in...and totally worth it.
which you can obviously afford. I am about to go back to school for 2 years and be unemployed for that time.. even a weekend trip is too much gas and fees to justify going. I will probably not do a lot of climbing until i graduate since gym fees are also an expense i can do without.

just look at the amount they charge for guided trips to skytop. shows you that their focus on making the most money where they can.

i know i'm not the only one who is in a similar situation.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

If you come for just the weekend a 2 day pass is a little expensive but a $90 yearly pass is not.

I haven't been able to find what the overnight fee is going to be at the campground or whether the other campgrounds are definitely going to close.

Generally speaking paid campgrounds are quite for the most part. If they keep a caretaker onsite then I would think things will be under control. There will always be some yahoo dragged out in handcuffs in the middle of the night.

I think there is room for a paid and a free camping. Those of us who would pay for certain amenities welcome such a facility with much anticipation.

lucander · · Stone Ridge, NY · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 260
Jake D. wrote: which you can obviously afford.
I afforded that in grad school because I taught college as an adjunct, substitute taught elementary school, staffed an after school program, worked as a part-time firefighter, rangered all summer, bike commuted to work, ate cheaply, did laundry once a semester, and hardly indulged in anything other than decent coffee.

Good thing I lived in a town with only dialup internet back then, I never would have had time to do all that if I were on Mproj.
MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
rocknice2 wrote:Those of us who would pay for certain amenities welcome such a facility with much anticipation.
It would be a welcome option, but it sucks that MUA and Slime will be removed as options.
camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240
Jake D. wrote: The Mohonk is making it nearly impossible for unwealthy people from outside the local area to climb there anyway. having free camping was the only thing keeping the fees to a level that i could afford. Now that i'd have to pay for camping also makes the cost per day absurd.
Sorry Jake, but there is no such thing as "free" camping. Areas where people crash without paying ALWAYS need some sort of maintenance, and cost land managers and/or the public money.

Whenever campers at the NRG complain about having to pay the $7/night fee, I look at their six pack of microbrewed IPA, I look at their $400 tent, I look at their late-model Tacoma, and then look around at the lush, landscaped, chill campground that has had over $300k poured into it by the AAC, which they will not be making back any time in the next few decades. Then I tell them that there is always the Walmart parking lot if they REALLY don't want to pay.

I'm sorry, but I just get sick of climbers, nearly all of whom are solidly middle class, have never been on welfare or medicaid, and who are already out paying gas and food money for the ridiculousness of CLIMBING on fucking ROCKS, complaining about a single digit per night camping fee.
Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365

which is why for the next 2 years i won't be climbing very much if at all.

i've slept in my car at walmart and trailheads more than anyone i know. i'm perfectly fine with that option.

i always counted Slime as part of the day fee.

Happiegrrrl · · Gunks · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 60
News article: Image of CG supervisor house with story about proposed speed reduction signage near CG

Also, there was a DEC Meeting late last year about the future of some DEC parcels on the Shawangunks Ridge(including the MUA). I did not attend the meeting and do not have any information about anything resulting from it.

Campground Fees: The last I heard, they were still undecided, but that was several months ago. At that time, some numbers were mentioned(I cannot recall exactly what they were), and they seemed to be very reasonable in comparison to other campgrounds.
WoodwardnBernstein · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

There is an interesting and on point comment posted at the end of the article linked above by HG.

And as for the monetary aspect of the campground, charging a reasonable fee at the new campground certainly is reasonable, but in concert with trying to close historically free campgrounds it just reeks of greed and it adds to the perception that the preserve is an overtly mercenary organization.

They set up a fee campground and eliminate free camping. They shove that campground down the throats of the neighbors. Other neighbors they sue, again and again and again. They funnel access to fewer and fewer points to make it easier, and cheaper, to collect fees. They buy land with a nice organic farm on it, then kick the farmers out out so they can install their own organic farm.

They seem to be non-profit only in that they don't pay taxes. They keep adding more and more infrastructure: buildings, driveways, campgrounds, parking lots, etc. And the management staff gets bigger, more bloated, and better paid every year.

I buy a Mohonk Preserve membership because I want to climb there, but like many, I now despise the organization I once loved.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
WoodwardnBernstein wrote:I buy a Mohonk Preserve membership because I want to climb there, but like many, I now despise the organization...
I can get behind that.
curvenut · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 0
Happiegrrrl wrote: News article: Image of CG supervisor house with story about proposed speed reduction signage near CG Also, there was a DEC Meeting late last year about the future of some DEC parcels on the Shawangunks Ridge(including the MUA). I did not attend the meeting and do not have any information about anything resulting from it. Campground Fees: The last I heard, they were still undecided, but that was several months ago. At that time, some numbers were mentioned(I cannot recall exactly what they were), and they seemed to be very reasonable in comparison to other campgrounds.
Thanks a lot for the information and link HappyGirl !
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
WoodwardnBernstein wrote: They seem to be non-profit only in that they don't pay taxes. They keep adding more and more infrastructure: buildings, driveways, campgrounds, parking lots, etc. And the management staff gets bigger, more bloated, and better paid every year. I buy a Mohonk Preserve membership because I want to climb there, but like many, I now despise the organization I once loved.
Couldn't have said it better myself. . . except that I don't buy a pass anymore.
Happiegrrrl · · Gunks · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 60

WoodwardnBernstein - I am guessing, from the style of writing, that this profile is the latest from Kent. If not, I apologize for my error.

If yes: Kent, you are entitled to your perceptions, but having been to some of the meetings where you suggest things are "shoved down throats" and local politicians being in the pockets of MP(as you have done in the past), I again respectfully disagree with your points.

I will not further engage with you(as WoodwarnnBernstein or other profile), as you continually post information based on speculation and not fact. Perhaps you believe what you post to be true, but at one point I undertook some serious effort to research your points. You have a history of confabulation and intentional misrepresentation of fact, to the point that your credibility has been damaged; probably beyond repair.

WoodwardnBernstein · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 0

Does everyone who has a similar writing style have to be the same person?

And, respectfully, I believe your saccharine sweet perspective of the Preserve is biased and colored, at least in part, by your preserve employment and your desire to be the new campground manager.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
WoodwardnBernstein wrote:Does everyone who has a similar writing style have to be the same person?
So are you or not?
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
WoodwardnBernstein wrote:Does everyone who has a similar writing style have to be the same person? And, respectfully, I believe your saccharine sweet perspective of the Preserve is biased and colored, at least in part, by your preserve employment and your desire to be the new campground manager.
How dare you point out the hypocrisy in people! :p
Jeffrey Dunn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 229

Its no secret there are certain locals that believe they have received the short end of the stick by virtue of the Mohonk Preserves support of stricter zoning regulations regarding development on the ridge and their history of litigating land disputes. Its clear that WoodwardnBerstein is not a member of MountainProject for any other purpose than to propagate the views of that small group of people here in these forums. I have very little sympathy for their arguments which either want to limit access to other private property on the ridge (their interest in the new campground) or reverse the zoning regulations so that there would be an increase in the value of their land by allowing them to sell out for McMansion development.

As for the general anti-Mohonk sentiment contained in this thread, I just cant agree with the idea that climbers have had anything but a fantastic outcome with regards to our access to the ridge. Do you expect that every decision made by the Mohonk Preserve should squarely be in the best interest of climbers? Do you not think that an annual membership of $90 is reasonable for your impact including the maintenance of the parking areas, garbage cans, bathrooms, and the presence of rangers to protect the area and respond to accidents? Is a couple bucks too much to spend on educating voters on the importance of our ecological resources and conservation efforts? It makes me think less of our community that in exchange for generally unfettered access to one of the most beautiful rock climbing destinations in the country that there is not more objection to the stated negativity toward the Preserve. When I'm walking down the carriage trails, saying hi to friends and strangers alike, approaching yet another classic climb I didnt even know existed, and being allowed to determine my own level of risk tolerance high above the trees, I am grateful for what the Smiley family did for us and very impressed at what the Mohonk Preserve has been able to accomplish for our community.

Happiegrrrl · · Gunks · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 60

I agree with your sentiments, Jeffrey. It baffles me that so many people either aren't really aware of what the mission of the MP is and the underlying efforts required to maintain that mission, or just don't care beyond it's usefulness as a climbing area.

Kevin - I really do not get why you continue to act like an ass to me, and don't know how I am going to be able to look at your face and be cordial next time I run into you. You are really one of the very few people I actually know that I feel that way about. I don't even feel that way about Kent!

Kent's statement(reasons he believes I am pro-MP to a point he sees as sickeningly sweet) may be his opinion, but I don't think they hold much validity. If he thinks I'm brown-nosing, that ain't going to be a point in my favor if I do apply for the CG gig, nor is it going to gain me any perks in my job as a trailhead assistant.

Am I pro-MP? Yes,I am. I have come to regard the place as a sort of Mayberry ("The Andy Griffith Show," which I adored when I was Opie's age). I even gave it a nickname, referring to the community aspect of MP as Mohonksville. Who doesn't love Mayberry!?

SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

I don't know why you engage with the trolls. Their ruination of every Gunks thread was foretold pages ago. I'm sorry I made that ka-ching joke.

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

Just chiming in as someone who has actually worked on the conservation side of both Minnewaska and Mohonk.

The day pass fee is steep. There is no way around that, but one has to look into the intention of that $17. It is not to chide seasoned climbers away from the cliffs, but as a precautionary measure against those new to a) the outdoors b) the ethics of the area c) the unique ecology of the ridge.

Remember, dwarf pitch pine ridges are extremely sensitive areas. All those tree anchors around the preserve, what kind of trees are generally slung? What kind of mosses, lichen, and Bryophytes are climbers constantly destroying? How many of you can actually point out the endangered fern that grows in Gunks cracks? Who can tell me the main invasive plant species spread all along the carriage road and Shawangunk ridge and by whom?

Yes the day pass price is steep, but I logged well over 60 days out in the preserve this season... As I'm a student my pass cost $80. My cost per day out was $1.33. I consider that perfectly reasonable. Besides, I could have gotten free access, but I chose to support the ecological restoration of the area as I know I too have an impact even if I attempt to mitigate it.

How many days did I have to pack out other peoples trash? Clean other people's chalk spills, etc?

Habitat destruction is apparent and widespread in the Gunks. The daypass fee is a check against it, AND helps support restoration. Locals and regulars are expected to learn the nature of the area and uphold it, but from what I've seen it is not always the case...

As climbing becomes more mainstream we see many groups of boulderers, new climbers, and those from far off that don't know how to act in the outdoors, or how to treat the area. Thus, the day fee.

If you really can't stand it there is free climbing all over the ADK if you come in with a group of 2 or more your gas cost is easily covered by the money you would have spent at the preserve anyway. --Go enjoy some more secluded rock! By doing so one must accept more risks however. No rangers, no cell service, no routinely checked anchors, and very possibly no potential for rescue.

As far as the new campgrounds, I'm ambivalent. If you really want to avoid them there is a new wal-mart that just opened on the other side of the ridge 20 mins away.

Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Happiegrrrl wrote: Kevin - I really do not get why you continue to act like an ass to me, and don't know how I am going to be able to look at your face and be cordial next time I run into you. You are really one of the very few people I actually know that I feel that way about. I don't even feel that way about Kent!
You expect this whining to change what exactly? Your issues are all yours. I really just don't care enough about you personally to look at or away from you. Drink deeply of that resentment poison.

Jeffrey/WilliamR - I think you're missing the points/objections made about the preserve in general (of which mine are posted elsewhere, so no need to clutter this thread). Let's just say we're not having the same conversation about the same thing. If you're curious, the search feature is your friend.

There's a long history between land owners, the preserve, and other agencies that operate in that area. No one is void of problems. There's a lot of competing interests and everyone involved is making their fair share of mistakes. This isn't gunks.com so expect the unexpected. To put the preserve on a pedestal is... well, as wrong as putting any of the other interests/organizations on one.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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