Dirtbags vs. The Corporate World, and all that other BS

Working doesn't kill climbing.....having children does (for a few years at least).

Also having no job and no money for gas or gear or food or necessities kills climbing.

Of course a topic like this is bound to draw some heated rhetoric.. but aside from the personal jabs and pseudo culture wars, there is something interesting here which I think really boils down to an internal issue. If this is about people accusing you, directly or indirectly through the blogosphere or what not, of not being committed to climbing, then just like any other criticism it usually only sticks when it hits a soft spot. Now that being said, we aren't all Yvon Chouinards, destined to hammer pitons out of our vans, or Honnolds, taking the family van and commencing on a 10 year odyssey of crushing rock to a fine powder. Personally I've always hated the idea of compromise, which relates, but the reality is that you can compromise on the specifics without compromising your values. I know some rad climbers who build spaceships and save lives in the ER. Have they compromised their fulfillment of the Dougie Howser or Steven Hawking model by spending too much time climbing? I guess you could say they have.. but then we're talking about extreme examples, and how many dirtbags are out there NOT hammering Yosemite's first pitons or down-soloing Chrimson Chrysilis?

I'd like to dirtbag for a while, but really in service of my own goal that's bigger than climbing. If it fits in to your vision, then do it, if not, don't waste your life. Most climbers value something more than climbing, I think, even many of the dirtbags. But even if it is #1, you still might want the job, especially if you're trying to push the grades. I've heard more than 1 dirtbag say its' hard to stay strong living on the road..or maybe not, I don't know, I haven't pushed the grades or dirt bagged. Yet. :D

Seems to me that all this nonsense could be mitigated if people just concerned themselves with their own circumstances as they relate to their climbing abilities instead of worrying about what other people do, and how other people perceive them. I mean, who gives a fuck, honestly?

Is someone else ticking your sends? Paying your bills? Raising your kids? Taking your classes? Driving your commute? Nope.

Provide for your loved ones and try to improve at your passion. Or not. The rest is just mindless fluff created by people with insecurity problems.

don'tchuffonme wrote:Seems to me that all this nonsense could be mitigated if people just concerned themselves with their own circumstances as they relate to their climbing abilities instead of worrying about what other people do, and how other people perceive them. I mean, who gives a fuck, honestly? Is someone else ticking your sends? Paying your bills? Raising your kids? Taking your classes? Driving your commute? Nope. Provide for your loved ones and try to improve at your passion. Or not. The rest is just mindless fluff created by people with insecurity problems.

amen.

^^ Couldn't have said it better - live your life and don't expect others to live it for you or by your standards.

I can't help but think of those new Jeep Grand Cherokee commercials.
"People told you where to go, what to do, what not to do...the horizons haven't gone anywhere, the tools you need are right here."

Working hard isn't bad for you.. but try to achieve a balance between work and play. Don't run away from one thing to do the other, embrace both parts of your life instead. Think of climbing as your reward, not your escape. But what do I know, I'm just a 21 year old whippersnapper.

I'm also going to use this opportunity to throw some hippie nonsense at you all. It's at least a tiny bit relevant. This is an excerpt from William Martin's book, "The Parents Tao Te Ching"

"Do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives. Such striving may seem admirable, but it is a way of foolishness. Help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life...And make the ordinary come alive for them. The extraordinary will take care of itself."

I just consciously uncoupled my inner child.

Those who have done it know the difference. Is it possible to work and climb a lot? Of course, but I believe most of those who leave the corporate world in order to do so didn't do it out of an all-or-nothing decision; they did it because they were probably unhappy at work and wanted to find something greater. Those who stay aren't as unhappy as those who leave, though there can be some disagreement about this as many unhappy people don't leave out of fear.

I left my job in corporate finance at one of the best pedi hospitals in the world. It was a great job with excellent benefits and wonderful co-workers - really a top notch joint (and I made decent cash and had excellent, decision-making exposure to senior leaders on a daily basis). But I wasn't happy doing what I was doing, so I left to follow a dream of being more creative in my life. I started out a writer, didn't do so well, and transitioned into visual arts. Next month I'll have my first museum exhibit. It seems to be paying off (sem dinheiro, claro ne?).

However, I think there's something that people miss, and that's that the level of stress is the really the same when you're unhappy in a good job (well paying, good benefits, etc.) when compared to doing what you love and not making any money. Seriously, the stress levels are the same. You're happier, so that helps, but you're making less money, so that hurts. So why not do what you love? Maybe the money will follow.

Of course that last point is tricky. What if it doesn't? Surely it's better to have money and security for the future and be unhappy than it is to risk all security for a greater satisfaction in life, right? I don't have an answer. I think the answer depends on the person. We only live once, so we need to make these decisions on our own terms.

The biggest fear of all is actually making the decision to do it. That's it. Once you make the decision, life usually goes where it needs to. The final point is that you can't judge based on the job market. The ideal of dirtbagging is less an ideal and more a necessity. The people who leave the corporate world don't do it because they see it as all-or-nothing, but more more so that they preferred one life over the over. Eras are irrelevant.

Short Beta wrote: "Do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives. Such striving may seem admirable, but it is a way of foolishness. Help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life...And make the ordinary come alive for them. The extraordinary will take care of itself."

Nice quote Short Beta! I guess we can replace "your children" with ourselves. In small doses, hippie wisdom can be good.

Andy P. wrote:That brings us to the current generation. Kids 5-35 years old today were raised during this pushback - these kids are raised with the overarching message that passionate work=win. "Be yourself" (Mr. Rodgers/Sesame Street), "follow your heart." After all, the Dilberts are now the losers, instead it is those few people who "love" their work that are the winners. This message, which seemed great in the 90's & 00's is I think what you are talking about, Dylan. Fortunately, I think that the inherent toxicity of this message is becoming apparent midst the economic downturn. I think that the new message that is evolving is that skilled work = win. But it is too early, sociologically, to tell if my hope is right.

Great observation. People are starting to realize that for 99% of the population, "following your passion" is kind of a load of shit. When someone's true passion does align with making money, it truly is a great thing. These are the things that end up making great stories though, but just aren't practical for most folks. I heard a TED thing recently about the guy who created Dirty Jobs. Nobody wakes up and says, "my passion and true calling is to clean septic tanks!" But many of these guys make mad bank and still have time to enjoy life. It's not about passion, it's about filling an economic need and getting your ass paid.

I think it's laughable to imagine that anyone, in this day and age, is receiving only one message. Kids today are being told, in no particular order:

1. Follow your passion, if you love what you do, it will never be work;
2. Get an education and work hard because the world is changing and your generation is going to get screwed;
3. Your success is your own responsibility, if you get screwed it's because you let yourself get screwed;
4. You have to make the world a better place because your parents (or the boomers before them) screwed it all up, and if you don't work to solve _____ (insert one or more of: global population boom; global wamring; resource depletion; secularism. . . )then the whole world is doomed;
5. Make all th emoney you can;
6. Don't worry about money;
7. Balance work and life;
8. Make work work for your life;
9. Make your life about work;
10. Make music.

These are pretty much the same messages my generation got and, now that we're in our late 30's through early 50's, we're doing mostly okay. The kids will be fine if we give them a good education. We will be fine if we chose the lifestyle that actually suits each of us as an individual.

It's impossible to say "go corporate or go dirtbag" because there are an endless number of variations in between, and it is one of those variations that is going to suit each person's personality, skills, values, and choices.

Climb for fun, and keep it fun. And always remember that (most) people at crags are generally in their very best, most friendly moods, and we should all jsut be happy to be there. And for the few that are not in their best moods, just ignore them, no matter how hard they crank.

GMBurns wrote:Those who have done it know the difference... Eras are irrelevant.

GM, interesting post - please bookmark this and reply again in 5 years and let us know how it turned out!

I disagree with the notion that working a lot is stressful, but ofcourse it depends on the job. I have a Nurse Anesthetist friend who makes healthy $$$ typically working 35-45 hours/week. Due to the nature of this work, the second they leave the operating room and come home, the job does not "follow" them. On the opposite end of the spectrum we have one of my computer programmer friends who seems to be perpetually tortured/thinking about the inefficiencies in the current project for weeks at a time.

I like this thread, it may seem foolish but surely this is meaningful information for someone - maybe our resident 21 YO hippie philosopher?

21 YO hippie philosopher? Well..my life is complete now.

Whippin wrote: Great observation. People are starting to realize that for 99% of the population, "following your passion" is kind of a load of shit. When someone's true passion does align with making money, it truly is a great thing. These are the things that end up making great stories though, but just aren't practical for most folks. I heard a TED thing recently about the guy who created Dirty Jobs. Nobody wakes up and says, "my passion and true calling is to clean septic tanks!" But many of these guys make mad bank and still have time to enjoy life. It's not about passion, it's about filling an economic need and getting your ass paid.

Funny I just listened to a Joe Rogan podcast that addressed that exact message… (the honey honey episode for anyone that listens).

It went something along the lines of, if people didn't "follow their passion" and take a chance we wouldn't have half of what we have today… Shit, think about it. Airplanes, television, electricity, radio, rock climbing (the first friend), the guy that builds guitars... It's not like you're trying to breath underwater… As long as your goals are obtainable. People need to be allowed to fail also because that's when you learn the most. If you fail you keep trying until you make it work. If you're afraid to even try it's sad. The people who say you shouldn't are probably mad at themselves because they've wasted a good chunk of their life because they're afraid. That's what made our country so bad ass. Maybe we should just go to predetermined roles in society like communism? You were born to a brick layer… you'll grow up to be a brick layer!

If your passion is rocking climbing (and being a dirtbag) it's similar to being a professional athlete. If you play football in college but don't make it in the NFL draft maybe you try again next year but eventually you move on to something else. They most likely got a degree in something else they were interested in. Unfortunately for someone who lives in their van it doesn't work that way. You have to follow your passion but you also have to be a realist.

Some people (me included) don't have a passion that correlates to making a living. I have a ton of hobbies and enjoy them all equally. I'm realistic enough to know that I'll never be a good enough climber, mountain biker, kayaker, to get paid to do it and frankly I don't think I'd want to be. I have a mortgage, car payment, wife, dog, etc. If I was getting paid for my hobby it would be pretty stressful and I wouldn't have as much fun. When I was a teenager I got paid to do BMX shows (not much) but it definitely took a little of the fun out of riding.

Instead I found a rewarding job that gives back, that affords me a lot of time off to do the things I really enjoy, and I make enough money to pay all my bills, go on vacations, and still save for a retirement. Aside from being a trustafarian I wouldn't have it any other way!!! lol

I'm not sure what the question is but I'm pretty sure the answer is: "It depends."

Forgot to add: Knowing from personal experience what the women in Southern Brazil look like, I'm pretty sure Burns' motivations to go there are not just about artistic endeavors lol

Choss Chasin' wrote:Working doesn't kill climbing.....having children does (for a few years at least).

I respectfully disagree. I managed over 40 days on rock the same year I had my son. While that's hardly breaking records, when you factor in the weather of the northeast and my lawyer job for a big corporate, it's hardly a dead year, particularly as I had to also create human life that year and carry it to term and breast feed it (climbing Birdland in Red Rocks with a breast pump wasn't half as bad as I thought it would be), which also caused all the predictable weight fluctuations one might expect. I wanted to climb, so I climbed. Nothing and no one can kill your passions, except of course, you.

I love my kid too. He's great to spend time with, so he comes along on every trip. We got him used to napping outside by 4 months. Now at age 2, 12 hour days outside are nothing to him. You don't have to pick climbing OR family. You can just create a climbing family.

^ well I managed 40 days just in March this year :/

Dylan Dwyer wrote:It seems to me that this whole notion of: you either have the adventurous spirit, you go full on and say 'f*** you' to the Man, or you just abide as another drone, is a bit dated and we need to let it go.

It seems to me that this whole notion of worrying about whether other people think you are a "sell out " is a bit childish and you need to let it go.

I just finished am 18 month period of unemployment (by choice) during which time I lived off a pretty big chunk of savings, all so I could climb and go outside as much as I wanted. Seriously, I was either climbing, riding my bike, or laying around watching TV and cruising the net.

The dough started running out, as it usually does and now here I am, coming to you live from a 9 to 5 job doing software development.

To be honest, I actually burnt out on being an outdoor bum. I was overdoing it and my body was paying the price. Also, my mind was going a little soft. I used to love learning new things (which is a constant function of working in software / computers).

So, the job pays great, and my living expenses are super low (no wife, no kids, no debt, no pointless consumerism). So, I expect I'll do this for a year or two, train in the evenings, climb on the weekends, and horde money in case I want to quit and go back to doing the climbing bum thing.

I can always get another job.