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Seed cable for ice routes?

Original Post
Alan Doak · · boulder, co · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 120

I was reading about John Freeman's episode of having an ice pillar collapse on him, and saw of picture of The Fang forming as a tiny pillar of ice, and it got me thinking:

Would it improve the safety of these routes to hang a cable/chain at the start of the season for these routes to form around?

Does anybody do this? I'm unfamiliar with how common collapses are, so I don't know how big an issue it is. These formations are pretty heavy, a rope probably isn't strong enough, requiring a cable or chain. If a cable is used, adding cable clamps would give the ice something to grip onto. There's the cost involved, but 1/4" steel cable costs 10cents per foot and breaks at 7000lbs. 3/8" cable costs 40cents per foot and breaks at 14,000lbs. Plus, it seems like having a seed cable would speed the formation of these climbs.

There's also the issue of having seasonly fixed gear, which would be a problem in some/most areas. Also, similiar to retro-bolting runout routes or reinforcing holds with glue, some people would be opposed to taking away the natural elements of ice climbing that require skill, good judgement, and personal responsibility.

Thoughts? Discussion?

Alton Richardson · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 170

Doing something like this would be ice farming. Which, I think for the most part is rather illegal. However, go check out Moffatt Tunnel. Classic example of this being done but with old static lines.

Cor · · Sandbagging since 1989 · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,445

Sometimes it works, sometimes it breaks…
(The Fang in Vail had a 3/4" ski lift cable. It broke!)

The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460
Alton R. wrote:Doing something like this would be ice farming. Which, I think for the most part is rather illegal. However, go check out Moffatt Tunnel. Classic example of this being done but with old static lines.
I've always wondered about that. Does the illegality stem from water rights issues? Regardless, I support ice farming at places like Moffat Tunnel with easy access and easy to set up top-ropes, because otherwise there wouldn't be any ice left after a few weekends of front range climbers knocking the flows to shit.
Nate K · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 240

good idea but ice pillars are really insanely heavy. a gallon of water is 8lbs, imagine how many gallons you could fit inside a schoolbus or two. then imagine them hanging from a steel cable. really small pillars it could probably work for though but im sure taking away the risk would ruin it for a few people

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
doak wrote:These formations are pretty heavy, a rope probably isn't strong enough, requiring a cable or chain. If a cable is used, adding cable clamps would give the ice something to grip onto. There's the cost involved, but 1/4" steel cable costs 10cents per foot and breaks at 7000lbs. 3/8" cable costs 40cents per foot and breaks at 14,000lbs.
Those cables probably wouldn't do it either. A (metric) ton of ice is, approximately, a 1 meter cube. That isn't that big a piece of ice, in comparison to the volume associated with a big ice column or free hanging dagger. Something like the fang comprises a lot of 1 meter cubes; you do the math with regard to the mass involved. 14,000 lb cable probably won't cut it.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

I am not sure that frozen ice formed by a cable is going to be supported entirely by the cable. When I was ice climbing in Boulder I recall a formation with numerous small ropes hanging on it. I dont know the specifications of the rope, but there is no way in hell they would have been able to support the 30' pillars, as the ropes were only 1/4" thick. I suspect how much of a load the cable has to support is extremely scenario specific.

Alan Doak · · boulder, co · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 120

Good points, I didn't spend enough time calculating the weight.

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436

The benefit of a cable (or rope) isn't that it supports the pillar. It just gives the ice somewhere to form up in the early stages, making formation more likely.

Cor · · Sandbagging since 1989 · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,445

Yes Kai,
The cable or rope gives it a straight line to follow.
For instance the Fang gets off it's plumb line path with a small breeze.
So in that case it forms a slight C shape to the pillar, and it falls…

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Cor wrote:Yes Kai, The cable or rope gives it a straight line to follow. For instance the Fang gets off it's plumb line path with a small breeze. So in that case it forms a slight C shape to the pillar, and it falls…
That is cool, I never thought about that before. If I wasn't such a wimp it would make me want to ice climb.
Marty Theriault · · Quebec, QC · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 310
Kai Larson wrote:The benefit of a cable (or rope) isn't that it supports the pillar. It just gives the ice somewhere to form up in the early stages, making formation more likely.
+1

Once a pillar starts to touch down, its already starting to hold its own weight, so rope strength is not really imp.

We have a free hanging 100' beautiful pillar that has only formed twice in the last 20 years ish, the wind usually sends the flow water all over the place making it hard for this monster to actually touch down. I have been toying with the rope idea for a while now for exactly the reason Kai explained, gonna give it a go next season
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78

Playing with that idea in a few places in NH.

Also probably going to go shovel some dirt onto the topouts of a few popular ice routes before things freeze next year. So much dirt has been slowly eroded away that what used to be moderately secure(ish) turf shots are now basically featureless rock groveling.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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