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Thunderstuds

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Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

Anyone using Thunderstuds in stainless, 3/8x3? Any input? I know the Hilti KB3 is probably the preferred wedge, but damn they're hard as hell to drive, even with a brand new bit and they're a bit more expensive.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Sam Stephens wrote:Anyone using Thunderstuds in stainless, 3/8x3? Any input? I know the Hilti KB3 is probably the preferred wedge, but damn they're hard as hell to drive, even with a brand new bit and they're a bit more expensive.
What exactly do you mean by "they're hard as hell to drive"? If you are using a new, correctly sized bit, a KB3 is not difficult to get seated. Moreover, I see that you climb at the New, which begs the question, wouldn't you agree that there are better bolt choices than a wedge bolt for sandstone?
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

Even with a brand new bit, the KB3 takes some serious effort to drive, it's no matter of tap tap. And in case you aren't familiar with the sandstone in the area, it's stupid hard. Decent bits wear out fast enough (less than 20 holes, versus 50+ at the red) that placing 5PC bolts can be frustrating when sleeves start to crush. Wedges are just fine for this sandstone.

The thunderstuds drive in easier, and tighten up just as good, just haven't seen too many people mention them

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885

I've placed a fair number of KB3 (3.75 x 3/8", 3x3/8" and 3.75x1/2") and never found them difficult to drive at all. This is in hard limestone. The KB-TZs are bit harder to drive but again, neither type required any noticeably harder force to drive in. Just steady tapping with a BD Wall hammer...

I've looked at other wedges (all SS of course) but the strength ratings fall short of the KB3s and for something that's much more permanent that a 5-Piece, I prefer the higher strength.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Go with glue-ins. They last the longest, they are the strongest, and you dont really need to replace your bit that often. I have been using the same bit for years.

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

What does he longevity of drill bit have anything to do with the type of bolt??

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
rock_fencer wrote:What does he longevity of drill bit have anything to do with the type of bolt??
Indicative of how hard or soft the rock is.

Thunderstuds...seems like I've seen test data for them and they were all over the map. Tensile and shear. Sigma, I dimly recall, put the lower end into slightly scary terrain.

I'd probably only consider 1/2".
Michael Schneiter · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Apr 2002 · Points: 10,406
Sam Stephens wrote:Decent bits wear out fast enough (less than 20 holes, versus 50+ at the red) that placing 5PC bolts can be frustrating when sleeves start to crush. Wedges are just fine for this sandstone.
I've gotten the impression from the guys doing rebolting work at the New that wedge bolts are a bit frowned on out there and guys like Jim Taylor are doing a ton of work to core drill those suckers out and reuse the hole.

Just something to think about. Besides, you shouldn't have such an issue with sleeves crushing on the 5 Piece, no matter how hard the rock is, and there are other options like glue-ins or easy to replace Triple X bolts.
rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265
Brian in SLC wrote: Indicative of how hard or soft the rock is.
i get that, trying to understand why the suggestions for glue-ins if sam is getting bit wear
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
Michael Schneiter wrote: I've gotten the impression from the guys doing rebolting work at the New that wedge bolts are a bit frowned on out there and guys like Jim Taylor are doing a ton of work to core drill those suckers out and reuse the hole. Just something to think about. Besides, you shouldn't have such an issue with sleeves crushing on the 5 Piece, no matter how hard the rock is, and there are other options like glue-ins or easy to replace Triple X bolts.
I'm not working at the New, but I do know that many routes are still going up there with wedges, as evidenced in the Meadow River Crags nearby.

My issue with sleeves crushing on the 5 pc bolts was coming from the 3.5" ones and holes that were undersized due to bits wearing out so fast. The first sleeve would meet more resistance, and the second sleeve nearest the bolt head would start crushing when it met the other.
Michael Schneiter · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Apr 2002 · Points: 10,406

I've had just as many issues with wedge bolts binding up in the hole and mushrooming or having a hard time going in due to worn bits as I have had 5 piece bolts binding up due to the sleeves catching. Hence, in my experience, either way you can have issues when your bit gets worn. So, I just swap bits out regularly and, if anything, ream out the hole a little to make up for the bit getting worn.

Regarding the glue in suggestion, if you're using glue ins like the Fixe or Petzl then you're drilling the hole out bigger than the bolt already and the rest gets filled with glue. Hence, if your bit is getting dull and drilling out a slightly smaller hole than when new, it's not as big of an issue as it is with other bolts where the sleeve catches or the wedge has a hard time going in.

Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
Sam Stephens wrote: I'm not working at the New, but I do know that many routes are still going up there with wedges, as evidenced in the Meadow River Crags nearby. My issue with sleeves crushing on the 5 pc bolts was coming from the 3.5" ones and holes that were undersized due to bits wearing out so fast. The first sleeve would meet more resistance, and the second sleeve nearest the bolt head would start crushing when it met the other.
And the specs on the KB3 strengths aren't all that impressive either?

us.hilti.com/medias/sys_mas…
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
rock_fencer wrote:What does he longevity of drill bit have anything to do with the type of bolt??
Because glueins dont require precise hole diameters like expansion bolts do. The hole just needs to be slightly larger than the diameter of the bolt. 1/2", 7/16", 12mm, 11mm, whatever, all those options would work for a 3/8" glue in. However for a 3/8" wedge bolt, only a 3/8" hole works. If he were to use a 1/2" bit with a 3/8" gluein, the bit would have to be REALLY worn for the hole to become too small to be useable.
rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265
20 kN wrote: Because glueins dont require precise hole diameters like expansion bolts do. The hole just needs to be slightly larger than the diameter of the bolt. 1/2", 7/16", 12mm, 11mm, whatever, all those options would work for a 3/8" glue in. However for a 3/8" wedge bolt, only a 3/8" hole works. If he were to use a 1/2" bit with a 3/8" gluein, the bit would have to be REALLY worn for the hole to become too small to be useable.
Gotcha, thanks.
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Sam Stephens wrote: And the specs on the KB3 strengths aren't all that impressive either? us.hilti.com/medias/sys_mas…
Looks like the 2014 sheets have removed the ultimate loads. Here's what I have from the 2008 PDF. Nothing else I looked at was near the KB3s

2008 KB3 Specs
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

So the KB3 is bomber, that's to be expected. But there's still not much input on the Thunderstuds, other than "wedge bolts suck".

I can't figure why the Hilti are so hard to drive still. That's probably my biggest gripe with them. The thunderstuds place easy and tighten up no problem. With their given ratings, I don't see why they wouldn't be acceptable, other than hilti obviously being top dog

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Sam Stephens wrote: I can't figure why the Hilti are so hard to drive still.
Sam,

You are either using a dull bit or the wrong sized bit. As others have stated, when the hole is drilled correctly, KB3's tap in rather easily with a standard wall hammer (even in bombproof granite). If you need to wail on your KB3's to get them seated, then you have done something wrong.
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

I'm not sure either, I'll try a different brand of bit, but the bits are brand new 3/8 bits

Picture of the wedge end of thunder bolts

Thunder stud

newrivermike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0
Michael Schneiter wrote: I've gotten the impression from the guys doing rebolting work at the New that wedge bolts are a bit frowned on out there and guys like Jim Taylor are doing a ton of work to core drill those suckers out and reuse the hole.
This isn't an accurate impression. If you've ever climbed a sport route at the New, you've clipped a wedge anchor and didn't die and we're actively replacing old wedge anchors with new ones (as well as glue-ins). Dozens (100+?)routes have been rebolted and, to my knowledge, only one route has been core-drilled by Jim: Fantasy Face at Endless.

Sam, are you drilling Nuttall Sandstone? I'm also curious about why you're having trouble driving the Hilti bolt. We've been using these in 3/8 and 1/2 inch and for me, they're the easiest to drive and best wedge we've used. They go in easy and seat quickly and consistently which allows you to gauge how much thread is going to be sticking out of the nut. My opinion...use the Hilti bolt if you're choosing a 3/8 wedge.

We've also been going through boxes of the Powers 3/8 wedge. I haven't had any trouble driving these but they do have a smaller surface area on the sleeve and I've found them to be a little inconsistent when seating. Sometimes they seat immediately but on rare occasion, I'll draw almost an inch of thread out of the hole before it seats. Overall, the Powers is good but not as good as Hilti. In the 1/2 inch size the powers bolt seats immediately and is bombproof.

Thunderstuds suck. A few years ago we were exclusively using these and there are hundreds of them out there. They're safe but my issue was driving them which is why I find it odd that you're having the opposite experience I did. Thunderstuds have a flimsy sleeve and if the hole wasn't drilled with a brand new bit or bored out, the sleeve would slip over the collar and prematurely wedge (in the wrong direction if that makes sense). If you're really watchful for the exact moment it happens, you have a good chance of pulling the fouled bolt and still using the hole but one more hit with the hammer and it's effed. This happened so many times we just stopped buying them and went with the Powers or Hilti. Unsurprisingly, this hierarchy of good to bad (Hilti, Powers, Thunderstud) also correlates directly to cost from most to least expensive.
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090
newrivermike wrote: This isn't an accurate impression. If you've ever climbed a sport route at the New, you've clipped a wedge anchor and didn't die and we're actively replacing old wedge anchors with new ones (as well as glue-ins). Dozens (100+?)routes have been rebolted and, to my knowledge, only one route has been core-drilled by Jim: Fantasy Face at Endless. Sam, are you drilling Nuttall Sandstone? I'm also curious about why you're having trouble driving the Hilti bolt. We've been using these in 3/8 and 1/2 inch and for me, they're the easiest to drive and best wedge we've used. They go in easy and seat quickly and consistently which allows you to gauge how much thread is going to be sticking out of the nut. My opinion...use the Hilti bolt if you're choosing a 3/8 wedge. We've also been going through boxes of the Powers 3/8 wedge. I haven't had any trouble driving these but they do have a smaller surface area on the sleeve and I've found them to be a little inconsistent when seating. Sometimes they seat immediately but on rare occasion, I'll draw almost an inch of thread out of the hole before it seats. Overall, the Powers is good but not as good as Hilti. In the 1/2 inch size the powers bolt seats immediately and is bombproof. Thunderstuds suck. A few years ago we were exclusively using these and there are hundreds of them out there. They're safe but my issue was driving them which is why I find it odd that you're having the opposite experience I did. Thunderstuds have a flimsy sleeve and if the hole wasn't drilled with a brand new bit or bored out, the sleeve would slip over the collar and prematurely wedge (in the wrong direction if that makes sense). If you're really watchful for the exact moment it happens, you have a good chance of pulling the fouled bolt and still using the hole but one more hit with the hammer and it's effed. This happened so many times we just stopped buying them and went with the Powers or Hilti. Unsurprisingly, this hierarchy of good to bad (Hilti, Powers, Thunderstud) also correlates directly to cost from most to least expensive.
Mike,

I've climbed at the New for long enough to know the rock, and if this stuff isn't Nuttall, it's as hard and as bomber.

Anyhow, I don't really know why I'm having this issue with the Hiltis, but I can say that if I drill a hole with a brand new bit for a 5 piece, it drives fine, and I know when my bits are getting worn because the 5 pc don't drive near as well obviously. So the bits are the right size. I wonder if there is a batch issue with a sleeve that is slightly oversized on the bolts we have. That's the only thing I can think of.

The Thunderstuds don't seem to show any problem placing, I know what you're saying about the sleeve, but the sleeve has enough engagement into the hole before driving all the way in that it doesn't want to slip over the shoulder in my experience.

I wonder if they've changed the design, other people I've talked to from the ASCA said something similar about the sleeve. They seem to place just fine, they do take a little longer to engage due to the length of the cone it seems. But I just mitigate that by running the nut out as far as possible while driving them in, and they usually snug up within 1/2 to 3/4 inch.

There was a definite difference in ease of placing using the Thunderstud and Powers 5pc vs Hilti, with new bits of the same manufacture. Why, I don't know, I'm trying to figure it out too.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

I wonder if you're using 10mm Hilti and 3/8 everything else?

I bought some wedge studs once at a gear store liquidation and then realized they were 10mm instead of 3/8. Had a bitch of a time driving them home until I got the proper drill bit.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
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