Munter Backup

Hi all,

I've had to/ opted to rappel off a munter hitch a number of times. In a normal rappel I'm one of those safety conscious nut cases who likes to rap with a backup (auto block) just in case and to ease dealing with any hiccups I have on the way down (ropes in trees etc.)

However due to the fact that the braking position of the munter is above the hitch I can't think of a convenient way to create a backup. I tried doing it the normal way (autoblock below the hitch) once, and even with the brake strand low the hitch there was enough friction, but the brake was running over the sling I was using to extend my rap so I took it off pretty quickly.

I was just wondering if anyone had a nice trick for backing up a munter. Productive thoughts are encouraged.

Also include lengthy explanations of why I am a flawed human who's going to die are appreciated. I get a real kick out of reading those.

I do not have a solution to this but I am curious to know if anyone has an answer.

As for your "Safety conscious nut cases" comment. I couldn't disagree more, the last thing you should call yourself is a nut case. I always use a backup, fireman's at least, you never know what could happen.

Have you tried a prussick above the hitch??

prussik.

Anywho, honestly i would have to say that in rappeling I leave responsibility up the person going over. I've used foot break, prussiks, and often find myself using nothing as a backup for time mostly. Each situation warrants a different approach to risk, but break hand or die is always present in my mind.

Max, I've seen the accident stats, it was sarcasm, a concession to the trolls.

Chef, I thought about it briefly, but the geometry doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing to hold tension in the rope above the hitch so the auto block would just fall into the hitch unless you hold it up. While in a worst case scenario this might keep you from falling, it seems like it would be massively inconvenient. Unless you mean placing the prussik on the loaded strand, which I guess is a possibility, but is in my mind less than ideal given that when it jams up it's a massive PITA.

Jesse, what do you mean by a "foot brake prussic"?

Nate Solnit wrote:Max, I've seen the accident stats, it was sarcasm, a concession to the trolls. Chef, I thought about it briefly, but the geometry doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing to hold tension in the rope above the hitch so the auto block would just fall into the hitch unless you hold it up. While in a worst case scenario this might keep you from falling, it seems like it would be massively inconvenient. Unless you mean placing the prussik on the loaded strand, which I guess is a possibility, but is in my mind less than ideal given that when it jams up it's a massive PITA.

Yes place the Prussik on the loaded strand, falling or even loading does make it a bit of a pain to release but I know people who rappel like this all the time and prefer this method over the prussik below the atc.

Prussic on the loaded strand. This doesn't address the issue of the rope you just twisted to shit.

Nate, I used to use a prussik above as a backup and I think you are misunderstanding it, as it works quite well. The prussik goes around both the rappel lines, above your device/munter, and then clips to your belay loop. As you lower, you bring the prussik down with you and if you don't slide it down, it locks up. Simple. I don't know what you mean about "it will fall down" or "when it gets jammed". If your prussik slides down the rope when unweighted, your doing it wrong. You can tie or use a longer prussik to keep it away from your harness and bidness, or you can extend it with a sling. Girth hitch the sling to your harness and then clip to your prussik. That will keep you prussik above you and out of the way. With a belay device, you have one hand above on the prussik and one below, on the brake. With the munter, it might be even more natural and easy to use.

Prussic below the hitch

Itll work just fine, if you are worried about the extension sling getting rubbed, tie a knot in the middle and clip it bck to the belay ... You jnow have a redundant extension

As to prussic above the hitch, make sure you use a releasable hitch like a mariners ... Or you know how to unload a seized prussic safely

Now why yr using a munter in the first place is a more important question .... Use the biner brake

;)

nicelegs wrote:This doesn't address the issue of the rope you just twisted to shit.

Aye. The coils can be a problem when rapping with a munter.

Nate, consider the lowly biner brake if you have enough biners.

How about adding an extra locker between the Munter HMS and the extension sling? I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't get the brake strand running over the extension sling that way

[re-edited: oooh boy. It's really time for bed. First post said "prusik HMS" which I first "corrected" to "rappel HMS" and now corrected again to Munter HMS. I think I finally got it right... maybe]

Maurice, I prefer to place my backup below my device/ hitch to avoid trusting a friction hitch to hold my whole weight as well as having to unweight a jammed prussic. So I was referring to attempting to back up a munter on the brake strand above the hitch.

Bearbreeder, that is how I rig my rappel, but since the rope leaves the hitch directly from the carabiner (an atc pushes it forwards) the rope hits the sling unless you're constantly pushing it forwards which makes rappelling a two handed affair (or at least it did when I tried it). I've seen a biner break but never put one together. I'm also unfamiliar with the mariners. I don't do this on a regular basis, but I once lent someone my atc at the top of something because they didn't know any other way to get down. I don't make a habit of forgetting one.

I've also heard a "monster munter" gets rid of the coils, but you have to basically feed yourself slack unless you're rappelling with a cow on your back.

You can just rap without the extension off the belay loop and put the prussik on the leg loop ... Much simpler

When using a prussik put the lower hand on the prussik/kleimheist and use the upper hand between the prussik and the device to PULL the rope through and feed the device ... Rapping should be 2 handed regardless preferably with both hands under the device even without a prussic

Alot of people try to slide the prussik down the rope, that can be jerky IMO

Thats should also allow you to control the brake so it doesnt rub against anything

Learn and practice the biner brake ... It doesnt twist the rope ... Its an essential skill

;)

bearbreeder wrote:Learn and practice the biner brake ... It doesnt twist the rope ... Its an essential skill ;)

That's really the answer over rapping with a Munter, IMO.

OP: between you and your partner, you should have more than enough carabiners to make a biner brake.

I suppose you could consider lowering your partner with your ATC and then using it to rap.

Edit: added "to make a biner brake"

Nate Solnit wrote: However due to the fact that the braking position of the munter is above the hitch I can't think of a convenient way to create a backup.

Although you get more friction if you raise your hand, you get plenty with the hand by your hip. So just just a prusik below the knot as you might when using a belay plate to rap.

Although a monster munter removes the twist, with a 10mm rope you will be rapping very slowly unless you weigh a lot.

"Learn and practice the biner brake ... It doesnt twist the rope ... Its an essential skill" Noted, but doesn't answer the question. The time that I did this, I had only taken enough gear to rig the TR anchor and get down. There was a walk around, but my friend wanted to learn how to rappel.

"So just just a prusik below the knot as you might when using a belay plate to rap." As mentioned before this causes the rope to run over the belay loop or extension sling, which I at least find very disconcerting.

Nate Solnit wrote: "So just just a prusik below the knot as you might when using a belay plate to rap." As mentioned before this causes the rope to run over the belay loop or extension sling, which I at least find very disconcerting.

If that's the concern, use two twist lockers clipped together in series. This means the munter exits the upper carabiner straight onto the second locker's surface rather than the sling.

Agreed with using binders to improvise a belay device works great

So this is a little off topic but I'm curious; OP do you use a backup every time you can? I'm just curious cause I have been climbing for 3 years and never once done it myself (which doesn't mean much, I could just be a random dangerous stranger) but more tellingly I've never once noticed anyone else around me ever backing up a rap. And I get outside pretty often.

So I guess what I'm asking the OP, when do you back up a rap? Every chance? Only with choss around? Only with heavy packs? I'm just curious, not trolling, or trying to be any other kind of Internet asshat, I am just curious.

Paul Wilhelmsen wrote:So this is a little off topic but I'm curious; OP do you use a backup every time you can? I'm just curious cause I have been climbing for 3 years and never once done it myself (which doesn't mean much, I could just be a random dangerous stranger) but more tellingly I've never once noticed anyone else around me ever backing up a rap. And I get outside pretty often. So I guess what I'm asking the OP, when do you back up a rap? Every chance? Only with choss around? Only with heavy packs? I'm just curious, not trolling, or trying to be any other kind of Internet asshat, I am just curious.

I'm no the OP, but my answer would be almost every time.
The only time I might not is for a 30ft rap off a single monster tree, when the rock is totally solid.

On a multiple pitch rap, with the need to sort the ropes out on the way down, looking for the rap station, moving past the odd unstable block, past the odd snake or seagull in a crack, heading slightly side ways. Every single time.

One thing I've noticed is that people often go to the trouble/time of placing two or more pieces in and anchor when rapping, but don't use a backup prusik. This seems a slight contradiction,