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Ryan Watts
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Feb 22, 2014
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Bishop, CA
· Joined Apr 2013
· Points: 25
What is the reasoning behind using quickdraws as opposed to alpine draws for trad climbing? I've been using a mix of alpine draws, shoulder runners, and QDs myself, but recently I've run into a few situations where I need a 24" runner, but I'd used up all my alpine draws/runners and I only had the quickdraws left. I can't think of a situation where I've only had alpine draws but desperately needed a quickdraw. If the clip is truly desperate, I'm probably slamming in a cam and clipping directly into the cam sling. If it's not quite that desperate, then the difference in the ease of clipping a quick draw vs. an alpine draw probably doesn't matter. The only time I can think of that a quick draw would be marginally better would be to clip the odd bolt or fixed pin, but again unless it's truly desperate an alpine draw works just as well (maybe better if it needs to be extended). I know I'm not the only one who racks up for trad with quickdraws, so I'm wondering if there's any other reasons/situations they are better than alpine draws before I spend any more money on those fancy slings.
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Petsfed 00
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Feb 22, 2014
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Snohomish, WA
· Joined Mar 2002
· Points: 989
Generally, I know in advance if I'm gonna need a lot of draws, but don't have to worry about extending beyond that. A very straight crack that takes a lot of nuts, for instance, is the perfect place for lots of draws. More importantly, if I have both draws and slings on my harness, I'll be saving up those slings for when I really need them, based on how I'm reading the route. If you find yourself consistently running out of slings, I suggest carrying fewer quickdraws, or using the quickdraws earlier, where appropriate.
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bearbreeder
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Feb 22, 2014
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Mar 2009
· Points: 3,065
Alpine draws can tangle when doubled up ... Its fairly common To fix em requires a bit more time U cant always get a cam in when its a pumpy placement ... Sometimes all it takes is nuts at the crux ... And its a tad easier IME to clip a nut with a draw than a sling that might be tangled Sometimes the smallest things means the difference between sending and falling ;)
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B.S. Luther
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Feb 22, 2014
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Yorba Linda, CA
· Joined Dec 2009
· Points: 65
Good question.. I was hoping somebody had figured it out already. I definitely came to pretty much the same conclusion you did, yet I still find myself carrying quicks... I think one component is definitely the mental "panic piece", which I'm not sure of the legitimacy of as it's really not that much harder to clip an alpine draw, even if the niners spun and it's tangled. But If I put something in in a bind, I almost always runner it a little because chances are I really don't want it to walk out, and when I do I always grab the quickdraw if it's there (assuming I don't need to extend it). But like I said, I'm not sure that reasoning is very sound, as it takes very very little time to straighten a tripled runner and you get a lot of flexibility over the quickdraw. Best explanation I can think of is that when you're racking up, alpine draws just take up more space. They tend to balloon a little and if you've got a bunch in a row it can look messy. Hence the appeal of swapping a few for quick draws, I think - it just tidies up the harness a bit. Decide for yourself whether "tidiness" is a legitimate concern I guess, haha.
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Tim Stich
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Mar 23, 2014
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Colorado Springs, Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,520
I have about four trad draws and mostly sport climbing quickdraws. I really don't want to bother having exclusive trad draws/sport draws at this point.
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mattm
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Mar 23, 2014
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TX
· Joined Jun 2006
· Points: 1,885
What bear said. The tripled draws can tangle and tend to flip more than a QD. They're also bulkier. I can rack ~ 8 WC Helium draws in the same space as 4-5 trad draws. I can also "mingle" QD with other on harness gear and they don't tangle as much. The triple draw really only is needed for extending nuts for me (I carry some over the shoulder slings for extending cams). Having a little bit of each type gives you options and variety which is often the best approach rather than all of one thing or the other.
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Ryan Williams
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Mar 23, 2014
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London (sort of)
· Joined May 2009
· Points: 1,245
Because they are lighter, nicer to clip, and less messy. Also, since your probably not whipping on them and not tearing up the top biner on a bolt, you can buy super light draws like Heliums and expect them to last for years and years. I carry slings over my shoulder for cams that need to be extended and tripled draws for passive gear that needs to be extended. I place a lot of passive gear so I need a lot of whatever kind of draw I take. I don't like how cluttered a bunch of tripled draws can feel, which is why I tend to carry a few of each kind of sling or draw. Just seems to spread the load more efficiently.
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Bill Lawry
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Mar 23, 2014
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Albuquerque, NM
· Joined Apr 2006
· Points: 1,812
First, I have never owned a set of QD's. So I can't directly compare. Instead I usually carry mostly single length draws - most tripled but some over the shoulder with a single biner. And I usually have at least two double- length draws tripled and twisted usually but sometimes also looped around the shoulder with biners clipped together. Second, perhaps this really belongs in a thread called "why you don't need quick draws for trad." :-) And, here are the kinds of things I've done with them over the years ... Ground fall potential: sometimes just a biner in the piece if sling length might be too much. Have to be careful climbing past gear or about other pull-out issues. Hard climbing straight up: most of the time the singles stay tripled and clipping the rope in goes smoothly. Odd rock edge: Can switch to a simple doubling of a single if that helps the rope-biner avoid loading on the rock edge. In some cases the gear-biner can be eliminated by basket hitching through the gear loop (I don't do this with wires and also not often as it is weaker.) Need extended sling quickly: pull over-the-shoulder sling off, clip and clip - done. Need insulated material for the bivy: biners are more easily removed from alpine draws. :-)
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Karl Henize
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Mar 23, 2014
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Boulder, CO
· Joined Aug 2013
· Points: 643
Whenever I may be placing nuts on a difficult climb, I generally bring at least 2 quickdraws. Good for panic placements, limiting fall distance, first piece above the anchor, lightens/ slims rack, etc.
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Jesse Newton
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Mar 23, 2014
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catskills
· Joined Dec 2011
· Points: 145
3$ a biner x2, 6$ plus 4$ sling = alpine draw and extendable. 10$ equals win.
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highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion
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Mar 23, 2014
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Colorado
· Joined Oct 2012
· Points: 35
Jesse Newton wrote:3$ a biner x2, 6$ plus 4$ sling = alpine draw and extendable. 10$ equals win. God your rack must be heavy and annoying. The weight probably isn't as bad as the bulk of those $4 slings. I'm a well known cheapskate and anti-gearwhore and I couldn't imagine climbing with a rack of $3 carabiners.
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mattm
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Mar 24, 2014
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TX
· Joined Jun 2006
· Points: 1,885
Jesse Newton wrote:3$ a biner x2, 6$ plus 4$ sling = alpine draw and extendable. 10$ equals win. I want to know where and what these $3 biners are?!?! Quality QDs (i.e. not crappy biners) can be had for $10-$11
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MTN MIA
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Apr 24, 2014
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Vail
· Joined May 2006
· Points: 405
I typically use five alpine draws and four to six half draws (a 12" sling with one biner) for just about all my trad routes. Lightweight and efficient. I only bring QDs if the route has a pitch with lots of bolts. Half draws are super fast and easy to work with, and when doing the aweful I pre-sling my big pieces with them. QDs are to heavy, bulky and expensive........ My 2 cemts
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Wiled Horse
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Apr 24, 2014
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2002
· Points: 3,669
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Ian Cavanaugh
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Apr 24, 2014
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Ketchum, ID
· Joined Sep 2010
· Points: 620
I tend to bring a few quick draws for nut placements. They tend to be easier to handle. If i don't need to extend it, there is no reason to use a 24. If i am on a long pitch or one i don't know, then i usually bring 8 alpine and 4 quick draws. this gives me all the options i need. both have their place and should be used accordingly. but it all comes down to preference.
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doug rouse
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Apr 24, 2014
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Denver, CO.
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 660
Never gave this a whole lot of thought..Always made do with QD's and shoulder length runners. If the line appears to run straight without corners and roofs, then often I'll use a QD, if the piece may pull as you climb past, then wieght it with an additional biner or large piece you know that you'll not use. Shoulder length runners get the majority of use though, and I don't really notice added "fall potential" unless I'm looking at a ledge underneath me or something...Best philosophy, was the first..." The leader doesn't fall"
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The Blueprint Part Dank
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Apr 24, 2014
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FEMA Region VIII
· Joined Jun 2013
· Points: 460
QD's are nice for stoppers and pixel pins/bolts. I prefer them to having loose binders clipped to my harness for those purposes. (I wear my alpine slings over my shoulder with one biner.)
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David Gibbs
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Apr 25, 2014
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Ottawa, ON
· Joined Aug 2010
· Points: 2
Ryan Watts wrote:What is the reasoning behind using quickdraws as opposed to alpine draws for trad climbing? Not owning enough gear. Or, hauling less gear to a crag where you're going to be doing both sport and trad leading. Especially for someone who has moved into trad leading from sport leading, they will often own a good number of quickdraws, which will (mostly) work fine for trad as well, so rather than buy a whole bunch more trad draws, they supplement with a few, and use their quickdraws while trad climbing.
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Locker
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Apr 25, 2014
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Yucca Valley, CA
· Joined Oct 2002
· Points: 2,349
"Sport climbing" often involves STIFF draws which are not the best thing to use when crack/gear climbing. They can and will LIFT/SHIFT gear more often than open looped draws.
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David Gibbs
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Apr 25, 2014
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Ottawa, ON
· Joined Aug 2010
· Points: 2
Locker wrote:"Dogbones" (aka stiff draws) are not the best thing to use when crack/gear climbing. They can and will LIFT/SHIFT gear more often than open looped draws. When I was buying quickdraws, I bought 6 of them with non-stiff connections between the biners. (If dog-bones are the stiff draw connectors, what do we call a floppy, but sewn like a dog-bone connector between biners for a quick-draw?) I like, actually, having a non-matched set of draws, even for sport, as I find that occasionally a different length will hang better/worse on a particular bolt. Of course, this doesn't really matter if you're climbing the hard, over-hanging, stuff -- but I'm not that good.
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Jon Zucco
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Apr 25, 2014
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Denver, CO
· Joined Aug 2008
· Points: 245
I agree with a lot of the others -- QDs are generally lighter in terms of weight and bulk, and work better for quick nut placements.
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