"Law" of Reverse Effect - useful tool to be aware of?
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The "law" (its not actually recognized as a universal law) states: in order to do something, stop doing it. In order to stop doing it, do it completely (become one with it, fully committed, no guilty conscience, no duality, just oneness like a snake in a bamboo chute, etc). |
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I have always said if you want to move left, you must first move right... premotion as it were in a large dynamic movement. |
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Throwing around this sort of psychological mumbo-jumbo will do approximately nothing to produce measurable improvements in your climbing. |
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Stoned-For me it's all about acknowledging that I REALLY want it, but don't care I get it clean or not. Trying to RP a route you have all the moves dialed on can be extremely stressful; you know what to do but that foot slips, you botch a sequence you know, ect. I find that accepting what I said above is the catalyst for staying calm and enjoying the moment/experience, that's when I climb my best. It's all about the journey not the destination. |
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JCM wrote:Throwing around this sort of psychological mumbo-jumbo will do approximately nothing to produce measurable improvements in your climbing.I call BS, knowledge = Power. Whatever jacked up stuff is in your head/life you carry up a climb with you. The more you're aware of this the better you can manage it. Edit-approximately is the operative word in your statement. |
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i really don't want to hear about a snake in your bamboo chute... |
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Ryan Kempf wrote: I call BS, knowledge = Power. Whatever jacked up stuff is in your head/life you carry up a climb with you. The more you're aware of this the better you can manage it. Edit-approximately is the operative word in your statement.I wasn't saying that mental state is unimportant. Rather, I was suggesting that the OP is really overthinking it. You don't need to talk about psychological laws and all that to know how to have the right mental state for climbing...it is a lot simpler than that. Purge negative emotions, foster positive ones. Think happy thoughts, climb hard stuff, forget the mumbo-jumbo. That's really all there is to it. |
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JCM wrote: I wasn't saying that mental state is unimportant. Rather, i was suggesting that the OP is really overthinking it. You don't need to talk about psychological laws and all that to know how to have the right mental state for climbing...it is a lot simpler than that. Purge negative emotions, foster positive ones. Think happy thoughts. That's really all there is to it.JCM-Stoned can't help it, it's in his nature. Your statement holds true nonetheless. I think Steph said it best: Be happy, have good thoughts. |
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Morgan and Ryan thanks. Slim, I dont blame you. |
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the "law" of reverse effect cant fully be grasped unless you understand "clinging". this law is not possible without the "clinging". the "clinging", in the case of Barbara was sending the route. Once she dropped the "idea"/"clinging" her vision/desire was then fulfilled/experienced. |
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So if one must understand clinging then naturally one will need to understand the ego. to understand/know the ego one must be able to distinguish between "real" and "unreal" WITHIN themselves. |
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I think JCM ignores that different people have different metnal processes. For many climbers it will, indeed, be adequate to simply banish the negative and foster the positive thoughts. For many others, that simple advice, no matter how correct, will be inadequate to teach them what is necessary to succeed. It is not always easy to be fully in the moment, and for more analytical types, it is often pretty helpful to think in terms of concepts like this "law of reverse effect." |
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James, beautiful man. I appreciate your understanding and patience. |
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I'm thinking if it was that easy to control your emotions by changing your thoughts, we wouldn't have doctors writing hundreds of millions of prescriptions for antidepressants, anxiolytics, etc every year. Not to mention the amount of other mood-altering chemicals people put in their body. But that's just me.. |
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Gotta say, this is exactly what happens to me. I've noticed it for years. If I'm on something at my limit, I thrash and thrash, mentally quit, then give it one more try. I send. It works often enough that I've told my climbing partners about it. Mentally quitting kills attachment. Presence follows. I always thought it was totally bizarre and personal. It's useless as a strategy, though. I really have to mean it. |
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Victor K wrote:Gotta say, this is exactly what happens to me. I've noticed it for years. If I'm on something at my limit, I thrash and thrash, mentally quit, then give it one more try. I send. It works often enough that I've told my climbing partners about it. Mentally quitting kills attachment. Presence follows. I always thought it was totally bizarre and personal. It's useless as a strategy, though. I really have to mean it.Exactly. You didn't choose to mentally quit, it happened automatically because you worked yourself to the point of really believing that you couldn't do it. Likewise, if what Zangerl says is true and not some bullshit cool-story-for-an-article ex post facto explanation, she didn't just choose to snap her fingers and give up hope so that she could send next go, it happened naturally due to an outside variable, the repeated failing on the route. Mr Samuel Langhorne Clemens puts it far more eloquently below: Y.M. Oh, come! Where did I get my opinion that this which you are talking is all foolishness? O.M. It is a quite natural opinionindeed an inevitable opinionbut _you _did not create the materials out of which it is formed. They are odds and ends of thoughts, impressions, feelings, gathered unconsciously from a thousand books, a thousand conversations, and from streams of thought and feeling which have flowed down into your heart and brain out of the hearts and brains of centuries of ancestors. Personally you did not create even the smallest microscopic fragment of the materials out of which your opinion is made; and personally you cannot claim even the slender merit of putting the borrowed materials together. That was done automaticallyby your mental machinery, in strict accordance with the law of that machinery's construction. And you not only did not make that machinery yourself, but you have not even any command over it. Y.M. This is too much. You think I could have formed no opinion but that one? O.M. Spontaneously? No. And you did not form that one; your machinery did it for youautomatically and instantly, without reflection or the need of it. |
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Makes sense. In wall climbing, when I want to bail on a lead, I just focus on placing the next piece, no thought of the end of the pitch, just move up one more ladder length and then reset. Eventually, once you're past midway, the desire to bail subsides. |
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Thanks for sharing your experiences dudes! After contemplating this a bit more I see this "law" of reverse effect as a reminder to "let go". It can be a tool like any other. |
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I'll have to remember to think about this, to see if I do it. When I face mental issues I have to "know" that I can climb it. I guess it would be the removal of negative thoughts, but I can still retain my doubts all the way to the anchors. It's weird. |
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^^^ I am sure we all have our own mental strategy to overcome doubt/fear. I think of it as the same game in a different arenas. For me what works best is to be inquisitive, using each situation as an opportunity to learn something. I find that I climb MUCH better when I have this attitude; I stay calmer, see more of the hidden holds (talking to you Eldo), ect. I have found that this is even more pronounced skydiving, I'm not sure if the difference in pace between climbing/skydiving affects this but that's my guess. |