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"Law" of Reverse Effect - useful tool to be aware of?

Original Post
William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

The "law" (its not actually recognized as a universal law) states: in order to do something, stop doing it. In order to stop doing it, do it completely (become one with it, fully committed, no guilty conscience, no duality, just oneness like a snake in a bamboo chute, etc).

Theres an article on Rock and Ice's "news" web site about Barbara Zangerl and the article states:

"For Zangerl, the key to success on this psychologically demanding route was FINALLY GIVING UP HOPE of sending it"

Thats a clear example of the "law" of reverse effect.

Has this ever happened to you? Ever want to send a problem/route so bad and it wasnt happening, then you "give up" (stop caring maybe, or just stop clinging to outcomes) and it happens? If so will you share your story/example?

Thank you for your time.

p.s. this "law" can only exist in the mind because it revolves around clinging and the mind/ego clings. Just like karma, its real only if you want it/allow it to be. Im interested to hear others experiences/opinions on this...

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

I have always said if you want to move left, you must first move right... premotion as it were in a large dynamic movement.

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

Throwing around this sort of psychological mumbo-jumbo will do approximately nothing to produce measurable improvements in your climbing.

Ryan Kempf · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 371

Stoned-For me it's all about acknowledging that I REALLY want it, but don't care I get it clean or not. Trying to RP a route you have all the moves dialed on can be extremely stressful; you know what to do but that foot slips, you botch a sequence you know, ect. I find that accepting what I said above is the catalyst for staying calm and enjoying the moment/experience, that's when I climb my best. It's all about the journey not the destination.

Ryan Kempf · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 371
JCM wrote:Throwing around this sort of psychological mumbo-jumbo will do approximately nothing to produce measurable improvements in your climbing.
I call BS, knowledge = Power. Whatever jacked up stuff is in your head/life you carry up a climb with you. The more you're aware of this the better you can manage it.

Edit-approximately is the operative word in your statement.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

i really don't want to hear about a snake in your bamboo chute...

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
Ryan Kempf wrote: I call BS, knowledge = Power. Whatever jacked up stuff is in your head/life you carry up a climb with you. The more you're aware of this the better you can manage it. Edit-approximately is the operative word in your statement.
I wasn't saying that mental state is unimportant. Rather, I was suggesting that the OP is really overthinking it. You don't need to talk about psychological laws and all that to know how to have the right mental state for climbing...it is a lot simpler than that. Purge negative emotions, foster positive ones. Think happy thoughts, climb hard stuff, forget the mumbo-jumbo. That's really all there is to it.
Ryan Kempf · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 371
JCM wrote: I wasn't saying that mental state is unimportant. Rather, i was suggesting that the OP is really overthinking it. You don't need to talk about psychological laws and all that to know how to have the right mental state for climbing...it is a lot simpler than that. Purge negative emotions, foster positive ones. Think happy thoughts. That's really all there is to it.
JCM-Stoned can't help it, it's in his nature. Your statement holds true nonetheless. I think Steph said it best:

Be happy, have good thoughts.
William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

Morgan and Ryan thanks. Slim, I dont blame you.

JCM I do think alot. I have a very active mind and my life and climbing experience/ability really blossomed once I turned my attention/focus/thoughts inwards into my own self, my own internal universe and I started to learn about me. Understanding this "law" (idea, frame of mind) can help someone, myself of course included to understand themselves a little "better". cast some light onto some darkness...

the more others talk about this (kind of topic) the higher the potential that someone will benefit for sure.

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

the "law" of reverse effect cant fully be grasped unless you understand "clinging". this law is not possible without the "clinging". the "clinging", in the case of Barbara was sending the route. Once she dropped the "idea"/"clinging" her vision/desire was then fulfilled/experienced.

coincidence?

she was full (heavy if you will), but in order to be "perfect" enough to send her route she had to become empty (or light if you will).

its a rad thing to be aware of for sure...

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

So if one must understand clinging then naturally one will need to understand the ego. to understand/know the ego one must be able to distinguish between "real" and "unreal" WITHIN themselves.

in order to know your "true self" or "truth" or your "true face" from external stimulation or the ego (or whatever else if flying through your conciousness) you will need to turn inwards, theres no half-assing this.

this one subject is really an amazing amount of other subjects all tied into one...

this may not be the best place to discuss this (its hard to explain something, sometimes) but Im trying.

Jamespio Piotrowski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 5

I think JCM ignores that different people have different metnal processes. For many climbers it will, indeed, be adequate to simply banish the negative and foster the positive thoughts. For many others, that simple advice, no matter how correct, will be inadequate to teach them what is necessary to succeed. It is not always easy to be fully in the moment, and for more analytical types, it is often pretty helpful to think in terms of concepts like this "law of reverse effect."

People learn differently.

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

James, beautiful man. I appreciate your understanding and patience.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

I'm thinking if it was that easy to control your emotions by changing your thoughts, we wouldn't have doctors writing hundreds of millions of prescriptions for antidepressants, anxiolytics, etc every year. Not to mention the amount of other mood-altering chemicals people put in their body. But that's just me..

I think I Can

Bill Wa · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 20
Victor K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 170

Gotta say, this is exactly what happens to me. I've noticed it for years. If I'm on something at my limit, I thrash and thrash, mentally quit, then give it one more try. I send. It works often enough that I've told my climbing partners about it. Mentally quitting kills attachment. Presence follows. I always thought it was totally bizarre and personal. It's useless as a strategy, though. I really have to mean it.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486
Victor K wrote:Gotta say, this is exactly what happens to me. I've noticed it for years. If I'm on something at my limit, I thrash and thrash, mentally quit, then give it one more try. I send. It works often enough that I've told my climbing partners about it. Mentally quitting kills attachment. Presence follows. I always thought it was totally bizarre and personal. It's useless as a strategy, though. I really have to mean it.
Exactly. You didn't choose to mentally quit, it happened automatically because you worked yourself to the point of really believing that you couldn't do it.

Likewise, if what Zangerl says is true and not some bullshit cool-story-for-an-article ex post facto explanation, she didn't just choose to snap her fingers and give up hope so that she could send next go, it happened naturally due to an outside variable, the repeated failing on the route.

Mr Samuel Langhorne Clemens puts it far more eloquently below:

Y.M. Oh, come! Where did I get my opinion that this which you are talking is all foolishness?

O.M. It is a quite natural opinion—indeed an inevitable opinion—but _you _did not create the materials out of which it is formed. They are odds and ends of thoughts, impressions, feelings, gathered unconsciously from a thousand books, a thousand conversations, and from streams of thought and feeling which have flowed down into your heart and brain out of the hearts and brains of centuries of ancestors. Personally you did not create even the smallest microscopic fragment of the materials out of which your opinion is made; and personally you cannot claim even the slender merit of putting the borrowed materials together. That was done automatically—by your mental machinery, in strict accordance with the law of that machinery's construction. And you not only did not make that machinery yourself, but you have not even any command over it.

Y.M. This is too much. You think I could have formed no opinion but that one?

O.M. Spontaneously? No. And you did not form that one; your machinery did it for you—automatically and instantly, without reflection or the need of it.
Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

Makes sense. In wall climbing, when I want to bail on a lead, I just focus on placing the next piece, no thought of the end of the pitch, just move up one more ladder length and then reset. Eventually, once you're past midway, the desire to bail subsides.

I remember reading about Royal Robbin's solo of Muir route where he decided to bail one night and the next morning decided to place a pin before going down, once looking at the pin he decided it'd be a shame not to stand on it. Once on that pin he decided to place another pin just to see. Eventually the movement of climbing/aiding overcomes all of the fears and doubts that come from a lack of movement.

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

Thanks for sharing your experiences dudes! After contemplating this a bit more I see this "law" of reverse effect as a reminder to "let go". It can be a tool like any other.

awareness is rad!

Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60

I'll have to remember to think about this, to see if I do it. When I face mental issues I have to "know" that I can climb it. I guess it would be the removal of negative thoughts, but I can still retain my doubts all the way to the anchors. It's weird.

But I've found that "knowing"(convincing myself) that I can do it produces better climbing. Better everything really. Right before a skydive, dropping in from a steep ridgeline with skis, or cooking something foreign. The whole experience is better.

Maybe I'm just calling what everyone else is talking about by a different name.

Ryan Kempf · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 371

^^^ I am sure we all have our own mental strategy to overcome doubt/fear. I think of it as the same game in a different arenas. For me what works best is to be inquisitive, using each situation as an opportunity to learn something. I find that I climb MUCH better when I have this attitude; I stay calmer, see more of the hidden holds (talking to you Eldo), ect. I have found that this is even more pronounced skydiving, I'm not sure if the difference in pace between climbing/skydiving affects this but that's my guess.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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