Victory Whippers Are Not Good Practice

ChefMattThaner wrote: I Don't think anyone is advocating for a full blown bolt paranoia. But when you make a statement generalizing bolts as non issues then you are mistaken my friend.(and an obvious sign you have never made the effort to replace hardware) You are right, bolts are the safest way we have figured out to climb in the modern day and they have a very high rate of success. I have clipped thousands of bolts and not one has failed. This, however, does not mean that one should not be suspect of older/sketchy looking bolts. Bolts do fail, and with what it sounds like remarkable frequency from your perspective. Also I see your comment about this not being a hobby for someone who might not trust a bolt as a complete ass clown way of trying to tell everyone how bad ass you are. Being a little bit scared is and always will be good for any "real" climbers. Fear is what makes it exciting, it keeps us sharp, it keeps us from forgetting stupid shit 2000' off the ground that can kill people. If you think I am any less of a climber because I don't trust fixed hardware with 100% certainty, well I guess that pretty easily shows the real ignorant one here doesn't it?

Chief Mat.... boy o boy, didn't mean to rub YOU the wrong way... sorry sorry sorry. I think you need to read what I wrote, before you make a bunch false assumptions. And I have placed and replaced a bunch of bolts FYI.

I thought for sure this was a troll post. I'm less sure now, so I thought I'd post another response.

Hemp ropes are long gone and falling has become a part of climbing. To get better at climbing you need to practice all of its aspects, including falling. Practice falling not only helps you get over fear issues to improve your performance, it also helps you learn how to fall properly to improve your overall safety. In many sports, from judo to figure skating to gymnastics, proper falling technique is one of the first things you learn.

Falling from the top of the climb is, usually, one of the safest places to fall due to a low fall factor and minimal risk of hitting anything. Plus, you can usually still claim a send if you climb to the anchors and drop of your own volition. (I know it gets questionable on routes like Swedin-Ringle where the anchors are hard to clip--that's beside the point.)

It seems like the real issue is damage to bolts or gear. I suppose it is possible, perhaps even likely, that repeated falls damage bolts over time. The way to fix this, like others have said, is to replace the bolt, not take restrict the way we climb.

Ezekiel Thornton wrote:Discussing serious matters I may come off as scared or whatever you fools think I am. When I'm out climbing I have fun, climb hard but I naturally watch for safety issues. There wouldn't be something much worse than to see one of my friends, family or someone else get hurt, climbing or not. From what I know a victory whipper is NOT clipping the anchors, regardless, I feel the same. When you all talk about bolts being able to take repeated abuse it seems to me you talk about a brand new bolt in a perfect setting. Only "time" and "oxidation" wear down a bolt some of you argue. Well what if you are whipping on one of these bolts that have been around. So the abuse of the whip is actually worse. (let me guess your a flawless human being who checks everything) Bolts wear down from whipping. If you want to increase the chance of it failing sooner to have fun jumping. You are selfish. If we really want to make things exciting we should all clip our quick draws to the repelling rings. I mean really it makes it easier to clean the anchors and if it's easy for me who cares about anyone else. Better yet lets just TR on the repelling rings. If you think taking whips doesn't decrease the longevity of the bolt you are wrong. If you think all bolts are made with equal strength you are wrong (maybe in a perfect world). Why put more risk into climbing for OTHER people. Even if it increases the risk by 1/2 a percent. With all the people climbing every year it may be worse thank you think. The people disagreeing act like tools and the people agreeing debate in a civil manner. Wonder who I would trust if I was reading this for information. Oh and, AKRON OHIO!! haha so sad you make fun of me. Weekend warrior baby!

Your profile picture makes perfect sense now...

Ezekiel Thornton wrote: Bolts wear down from whipping.

got some evidence o Sage-from-the-flatlands?

I am thinking that since these are expansion bolts,they may get more embedded in the rock with more force applied. but, in softer rock, they would degrade the rock, but thinking the metal would be ok.

side note, a soft catch will greatly decrease the force on the bolt, cam, or whatever is being whipped on, intentionally or unintentionally. evidence: that's just science bitches.

definitely could be wrong tho... 20KN have an opinion?

David Sahalie wrote: got some evidence o Sage-from-the-flatlands?

Ok, take a paper clip and bend back and forth.

I agree that taking a fall for getting use to falling is fine. I understand that bolts/rocks can take a lot of abuse. I trust falling on stoppers. I clip spinning bolts.

I know the answer to why must you do a victory whipper is that it is fun.

Ezekiel Thornton wrote: Ok, take a paper clip and bend back and forth. I agree that taking a fall for getting use to falling is fine. I understand that bolts/rocks can take a lot of abuse. I trust falling on stoppers. I clip spinning bolts. I know the answer to why must you do a victory whipper is that it is fun.

That analogy would apply if the bolt was sticking .5 way out of the rock. But with a properly placed bolt, and one that is not over tightened, the force of the fall is on the hanger.

that force is then transferred to whole of the bolt being pulled outwards and downwards. this works because it is an expansion bolt. it doesn't bend like a paperclip.

I don't take whippers for fun. If am feeling like I need to, I will take a few 20' falls to get that anticipation out of my head before trying to send something.

Yeah Ezekiel your shoddy logic isn't helping your original case. Sounds like your responses are now focusing on bolt wear as opposed to the rest of your suggested topics (harness, carabiner, rope). If it is bolt wear that you are worried about, that's not a bad thing. I believe most climbers could benefit from having a bit more skeptical attitude towards fixed pro in general (ie it's not always bomber). But you can't lose sight of the big picture. Are you really gonna rag on people for having fun? Especially without any real evidence to distinguish victory whips from other falls?

Yeah we all know that each fall on a bolt takes a fraction of it's life away...that is physics as we know it. Nothing lasts forever. Until you can provide evidence on how much faster victory whips degrade bolts, climbers will continue to pursue those aspects of the "sport" that are fun to them.

Also - just because you have noticed worn bolts below the crux of routes doesn't necessarily mean the increased number of falls was solely responsible. There are so many other factors involved that more evidence is needed to suggest conclusions to the climbing community.

David Sahalie wrote: with a properly placed bolt, and one that is not over tightened, the force of the fall is on the hanger. that force is then transferred to whole of the bolt being pulled outwards and downwards. this works because it is an expansion bolt.

Understands how bolts work.

Ezekiel Thornton wrote:Ok, take a paper clip and bend back and forth.

Does not understand how bolts work.

I have done more than my fair share of bolt replacement. I am also known to take a couple "Victory Whips" a year. So per your original post I am both "unethical," and "one of those kind people you should respect."

Seems ironic to me. He's not trolling he's just a HIPSTER.

I think victory whips are only appropriate after you've finished dry tooling a route at the Cody Ice Festival

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote:I think victory whips are only appropriate after you've finished dry tooling a route at the Cody Ice Festival

cracking up. I'LL MEET YOU AT THE COXFFEEE SHOP!!!1!!1!

Ezekiel Thornton wrote: Ok, take a paper clip and bend back and forth. .

This troll is getting even better!!

That's kinda like having a cold day in July and claiming that global warming doesn't exist:

Nonsense

Well executed troll Ezekiel, well done sir.

Ezekiel Thornton wrote:If we really want to make things exciting we should all clip our quick draws to the repelling rings.

Repelling rings. Lolzing

Just think of all the pugs sacrificed in paper clip drop testing, all for not. :(

The paper clip scenario is just to show fact that things wear from abuse. Your internet argumentative brains focus on picking apart each individual word.

I could just be thinking incorrectly about this whole situation. I don't have much evidence other than common logic about how things wear down after use. I work at a machine shop where we repair steel and aluminum tire molds. I have seen many of bad bolts whether installed incorrectly, rusty or maybe from being loaded (I wasn't there to see every person climb on the route so hard to say).

I replace my harness. I check my trad gear if I take some falls. I inspect my biners. I always flake my rope to feel for imperfections. I will toss my slings if I don't think they are safe. Am I paranoid? Money cannot replace my leg, arm, back or worst case scenario my life.

Andy Novak wrote: They clipped the anchor, belayer paid out slack, and they jumped. Those bolts are glue-ins (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong)...

In Austin on a roof route extension called Lonesome Dove, they put in a titanium glue in. A guy took a whip on it and sheared the eye clean off. This bolt took repeated falls due to the difficulty of the moves and I don't think even lasted a year.

is it unethical to take a victory whipper while bouldering?

is it unethical to TAKE.... ????

is it unethical to be lowered...????

both cause the bolt and the rope to get "used"

Stich,

Your example sounds like a clear-cut case of the person bolting the route choosing the wrong bolt/bolt material, and possibly installing it incorrectly as well. Ten minutes on Google showed several bolts (SS) with shear and pull-out strengths orders of magnitude higher than even a rough lead whipper.

alexanderblum wrote:Stich, Your example sounds like a clear-cut case of the person bolting the route choosing the wrong bolt/bolt material, and possibly installing it incorrectly as well. Ten minutes on Google showed several bolts (SS) with shear and pull-out strengths orders of magnitude higher than even a rough lead whipper.

I'm not sure what the final analysis was on why the bolt failed. Perhaps another material would have been better than titanium.