TRAD ETHICS

Wait, so if I free solo something, but there are draws hanging for whatever reason (someone else projecting the climb?) then is that a pinkpoint free solo?

Sounds like you did do a pink point free solo. You should submit the feat in a mag, you must be the first! :)

This thread is sort of me mocking the ridiculous debates I hear going on at times. I say go out, climb, have fun and be honest about what you did. No matter who will call it what.

Matt Wilson wrote:Wait, so if I free solo something, but there are draws hanging for whatever reason (someone else projecting the climb?) then is that a pinkpoint free solo?

just draws? or are the draws connected to pre-placed gear?

A lot of you mock the few of us who are concerned with the minutia of climbing performance and achievements. I can understand this impulse because climbing, at it's core, is about freedom, connecting with nature, movement, partnerships, travel, and so many other things. It would seem that debating these details is not only trivial, but that those of us who obsess over them are "missing the whole point" which might appear really sad.

This could not be further from the truth. Those of us who hold ourselves (and others) to certain standards also love climbing for all the same reasons that everyone does, but we also value that feeling of achievement and success that comes from climbing. Often, the more one must work for that achievement, the greater the sense of reward. I assure you this is a deeply personal process.

Sure, even the difference between a TR, a lead placing all the gear, and a free solo ascent is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but small stylistic differences (for example, the difference between leading with gear in place or placing it on the lead) serve as important measuring sticks for understanding one's own progression and development as a climber. Having terms for these ascents (i.e. "pinkpoint" and "redpoint") allow us to speak a common language with others who share our love for the sport. This dialogue can be many things including inspiring, motivating, humbling, or simply a way to connect with others.

So continue to mock on, but doing so, I believe, betrays the same narrow viewpoint that you who are accusing the rest of us (those who value the concept of a "redpoint") for having.

In this particular example (the original poster's), there is nothing wrong with what your friend did except for claiming the redpoint. It's fine if he's satisfied with his performance on the route, but having a piece of gear pre-placed (where placing that same piece on lead would add to the difficulty of the climb) makes the climb easier (much akin to how top roping the route would make it easier still). Many things cause us to cut corners (weather, convenience, safety, impatient partners, changing priorities, boredom, etc.) and as long as we're honest about our tactics (with both ourselves and others), there's nothing wrong with it. In this case, calling the ascent a "redpoint" without further explanation is not telling the whole story.

now that's a valid point.

Josh Janes, honestly, I do respect how other people view and record their ascents. I do use a term red point or onsight often. I do not have a problem with it, just having a little fun with the internet here. Climbing is not solving world problems, so at times it is interesting to start a silly thread and see where it goes. It actually brought out a good discussion and showed that the line is not as clear. I do not think that people who care about the difference in style are missing the point of climbing. I think it is usually people with ego problems who try proving that others have less fun etc (looking down at others).

I actually have a serious question which sort of gave birth to the silly thread. My friend did a hard pitch, which he tried multiple times before, but this time it had 3-4 stuck cams. Not his cams. He clipped them and in the end send the pitch. This pitch is hard because of it's enduro factor. And clipping 3-4 fixed pieces helps a lot. Seems like it is technically a PP. He called it a redpoint, and I didn't argue because I was happy he send the pitch, and popular trad climbs have fixed gear, at times even multiple pieces. But than what is the difference if those are stuck pieces or pre placed, and how many pre placed/stuck pieces does it take to become a PP vs RP?! I am embarrassed to post this question in public because it is so silly, and universally does not matter at all, but I'd be curious to see what others think. I think the line here is even less clear here...

My take is if it is a stuck cam or two, clipping which will not make the crux/pitch any easier, than it is ok to clip it and call it a RP, OS or w/e if you send. But if you pre placed a piece to make clipping during the crux section easier than it is a PP. In any case what matters is pushing yourself to do your best and being honest.

Onsight, bare-naked free-solo.

Everything else is aid. And of course, chalked holds, bolts, etc ruin the onsight.

Josh Janes wrote:A lot of you mock the few of us who are concerned with the minutia of climbing performance and achievements. I can understand this impulse because climbing, at it's core, is about freedom, connecting with nature, movement, partnerships, travel, and so many other things. It would seem that debating these details is not only trivial, but that those of us who obsess over them are "missing the whole point" which might appear really sad. This could not be further from the truth.

I disagree. The obsession with any activity, with very few exceptions, strikes me as amusing. If we're honest about it, it's a tiny bit about your own progress, and mostly about comparing yourself to someone else. Of course, there are those that obsess about climbing AND maintain the spirit of it (see: healthy spirit), but you rarely/never hear from them about all the boring details of their latest tick. They most likely don't post of these forums or check off some list.

That's not to say many of these OCD climbers aren't responsible for impressive routes/accomplishments - quite often a person needs these odd rules/regulations to achieve. As you said, it's very personal.

That doesn't mean I don't still get a good lulz reading about it, especially when it degrades to arguing about it. I'm not fantastic at climbing, but I love it. The things I am fantastic at, I keep no list or measure my genitals over. I know it's not the way for everyone (obviously), but I think it's a healthier way.

If you are somehow subliminally trying to ask people what defines you as a better climber, here is my take if you want it.
Sport climbing is completely different than trad let alone aid or big wall. All those silly colored points go out of the window. Resilience is what defines a better climber. A competent and strong climber is tedious, physically and mentally more resilient. He is a survivor. He /or she is able to see the whole picture, weigh out pros and cons and make split decisions if necessary. That climber you so aspire to be is able to step back from his own ego and see what benefits the whole party in the timely and safe ascent and retreat.

Something like that....

Toby, I hope you don't think I was targeting you with my post. Your original question made total sense to me. It was all the meaningless (and misinformed) posts that followed...

Anyway, with your most recent example, let me propose a much more succinct and common counter example:

A common scenario is that you are leading a hard pitch, you fall on a wire, and weld it into the placement. You continue to the anchor, lower off and clean the route (minus the welded wire which you either can't get out or in doing so would destroy the wire, the placement, or both), pull your rope, and fire the route only this time clipping the fixed wire.

This happens all the time - in fact this was the case for several of us who were working a route called "Strategic Arms" in Red Rocks this past fall. One person fell and fixed a #5 RP and the rest of us, over the course of the following weeks, clipped that wire on our way to sending the route.

I wrote this down in my notes as a redpoint, but I know the truth and if anyone asked who didn't know about the fixed wire, I would say, "Yeah, I redpointed Strategic Arms. There was a fixed wire at the crux." However, the only person who ever asked about it was my girlfriend (who doesn't really care about the details) and one other friend (who was also working the route and already assumed the fixed wire to be there).

That route is not important enough to me to worry about it, but there have been other routes where I've removed fixed gear because the experience that I wanted to have, or route itself, demanded that I rose to the occasion. For example, right now I'm trying a two pitch climb that has a hanging belay. I think the line is incredible and would be much more rewarding if I could eliminate the hanging belay and do it in a single 220' pitch. This requires a lot of shenanigans (lots of back cleaning, long runners, run outs, and way too many trips to the crag). It's completely silly, arbitrary, but it's damn fun and it's the way I want to do it.

Adam Burch wrote: I disagree...As you said, it's very personal.

So you disagree w/ with someone on things very personal?

Adam Burch wrote: The things I am fantastic at

What are those exactly? How did you get to be good at them? And why are those things more worthwhile?

Adam Burch wrote: I disagree... it's mostly about comparing yourself to someone else.

Well we can agree to disagree. But your opinion of other climber's motivations probably reflects the circles you pay attention to; most strong climbers I know are deeply personally motivated. We don't need to "measure our dicks" as you say because we know (and in climbing are frequently reminded that) there will always be someone out there with a bigger one.

reboot wrote: So you disagree w/ with someone on things very personal? What are those exactly? How did you get to be good at them? And why are those things more worthwhile?

Haha. Okay, I'm trying to be nice. Most people like to pretend that everything is okay, every habit/decision/etc has equal value or merit. Those of us with brains know otherwise. It's a personal choice to annoying obsess and nitpick and whine about the minutia of climbing. It's a bad choice. That's my take: it's not a healthy way to go about it, but I understand that some people feel driven to do it, and again - it does result in some great climbing accomplishments if you look at the end product. If you feel secure in your method, and secure in yourself, you won't take offense to my take - you'll just keep on doing you. Incidentally, when I climb with someone who exhibits such behavior, I tend to avoid climbing with them in the future. You can do as you like, but that doesn’t mean it makes sense.

What am I fantastic at? I can make love like you've never seen. Got tired of tracking all the big O's I gave my lady, and what temperature it was, and how much protection (fixed or otherwise) I used, etc etc. Now I just relish the act and I've let go of the obsessive tracking. It's done wonder for my soul.

I also make a mean Greek Pasta (5.14R V)

Josh, you seem like a reasonable cat - probably keep your ticks to yourself. Nothing wrong with deep-seated personal motivation, but that's really not the core of the issue here - it's about hyper-dialing in these definitions of types of ascents, so you can put it on your blog/forum/etc to compare with others, or let it ruin your own enjoyment of the outdoors (or others with you) if you take it too far.

8aNu, pinkpoint, 13b, I'm fat and gay.

Josh Janes totally gets it. (+1) Speaking 100% sense.

" The obsession with any activity, with very few exceptions, strikes me as amusing."

Some people's obsession with trolling every single online climbing forum is pretty amusing, aint it Burchey? :)

+1 to JJ, well said.

why the hell cant people use the quote function on this website?

SirTobyThe3rd wrote:" The obsession with any activity, with very few exceptions, strikes me as amusing." Some people's obsession with trolling every single online climbing forum is pretty amusing, aint it Burchey? :)

Haha. Well played.

That being said, I'm being sincere.

In addition, you've never been to Lee Vining.

youtube.com/watch?v=OHy5Uej…

JLP wrote:Face it folks - it's all about competition - to rise above and gain praise from your peers, to crush your adversaries, to spawn your seed among the most desirable of women, to please your unsatisfied father. Nothing wrong with this, we are human and this is what drives greatness. Claiming anything else is BS. Just say what happened. You know what's relevant, and you know not disclosing it is a lie.

I'm way better than you bro!