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Overtraining for older guys?

Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
csproul wrote: If you look at this graph, which shows data points for BMI vs %BF for males, you'll see just how (un)likely this is: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:… At 6'2"and 193 lbs, the BMI is 24.8 Find that BMI and look at 10% BF. You'll find that there are people in that data range, and even a few with lower BF%, but it is far from the norm. Not one data point is 4% at that BMI.
So...we agree?
Chad Miller · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 150
david doucette wrote: i'm not sure how you are calculating body fat but those numbers just don't align. i'm 6' and 178 and i'm not near 10% body fat (although i'd like to be). granted you're 2" taller than me, but it still doesn't add up. i think the most important thing in your routine is cardio and a lot of it. you need to lose the extra weight first and foremost if you want to take climbing to the next level. a couple of years ago when i got back into climbing i was about 15 pounds heavier than i am now and it sucked. now that i've leaned out, i'm stronger and continue to increase my endurance. BTW, you're far from an "old guy" at 35 ;)
Sorry, an mathematical error.

For me to be at 10% body fat I'd weigh around 205 pounds!

I know that lowering my weight is important thus it's my #1 training goal.

I also know I'm not old but dang some days I feel like it.
Chad Miller · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 150
KevinCO wrote:Take a CLA capsule with each meal. CLA burns fat and helps you retain muscle mass. It takes a while to see results (4-5 weeks), and if you stop taking it you quickly gain whatever it helped you lose.
I call bullshit.

Even if it worked there is no way in hell I'm going to take an unregulated medication. Fuck knows what it would do to me and my diabetes.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
jon weekley wrote: Tyson was 220, but he carried it in his upper body. His legs were noticeably smaller in comparison. Presumably this was from road work.
Doesn't look like his upper body is considerably bigger than his legs:



jon weekley wrote: Ray Lewis: Same thing. He was 220 when he won the super bowl. He was very quick with super lateral speed that did not come from squats.
I'm pretty sure it did. Think sprinters vs. long-distance runners. Their legs are huge.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Ryan Watts wrote: So...we agree?
Yeah...with the minor caveat that I don't know how they selected people for this study, and a selection bias could eliminate people who fall outside the data. Even with this data, it is possible his BF% could be that low at that weight, just very very unlikely.
Chad Miller · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 150

You all can keep arguing about my body fat percentage. I'm going jogging to reduce mine a bit.

Have fun and as I loose weight I'll post up what my body fat percentage is.

Take care.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Chad Miller wrote: Sorry, an mathematical error. For me to be at 10% body fat I'd weigh around 205 pounds! I know that lowering my weight is important thus it's my #1 training goal. I also know I'm not old but dang some days I feel like it.
How are you calculating this? Look at the graph I posted upthread. If this data is anywhere near representative of the average population, this is still not correct. At 205, your BMI is 26.3. On this graph that would put you at >20%. There is one data point here (which I'm not sure if I'd believe since it's a person with 3% BF) with a BMI of 26 and 10% or below BF%. I suppose there are a number of people with BMI in the 20-25 range that are ~10%, but they are still pretty few. So, if your BMI were overestimated by 5, maybe it's possible, but still unlikely. How are you calculating that at 6"2" and 205 lbs, you'd be 10% BF?
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

this all reminds me of that one thread, maybe a year ago, when some dude was trying to convince everybody that he was 4% BF or something crazy like that. The vast majority of people greatly underestimate their BF%, it's like they consider it an insult if someone calls them 15% or 20%.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

going to go on a limb here and say that until the OP is climbing 12a, just climb and boulder. maybe keep the cardio for weight control.

Elijah Flenner · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 820

To answer the original question. I am 40 and climb about 15 hours a week and run 15-20 miles. I had to work up to this slowly, but I don't think you are overdoing it right now. I still see improvement in both climbing and running, I am not getting injured, and I am still motivated. You could train more, but build slow and listen to your body. Paying attention to your diet is key. As a diabetic you probably do that already.

As others here, I doubt that you are really 15% body fat, but it matters little to me. To lose weight, make sure you are doing it slow enough, count calories, protein, and carbs. Be sure that your fats come from good sources. This last point seems to be a key one for me to avoid joint pain. Your experience may be different.

From extrapolating my experiences with following weight and body fat, I believe that if you are 240 at 15%, you will be around 11.5% at 200 and will need to drop to about 180 to be around 10%. I am interested to hear your experience.

Jason Kim · · Encinitas, CA · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 255
slim wrote:this all reminds me of that one thread, maybe a year ago, when some dude was trying to convince everybody that he was 4% BF or something crazy like that. The vast majority of people greatly underestimate their BF%, it's like they consider it an insult if someone calls them 15% or 20%.
I think that was the thread that I participated in, and I never did receive the 6 pack of beer that I am owed.
Derek Lawrence · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 695
KevinCO wrote: It shouldn't interfere with any of your diabetes meds.
I had not heard of this stuff so I was curious and googled it...
webmd.com/vitamins-suppleme…

Under side effects it specifically says
Diabetes: There are concerns that taking conjugated linoleic acid can worsen diabetes. Avoid use.
Jason Kim · · Encinitas, CA · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 255

Chad, my $.02:

It sounds like you're just wearing yourself out and could use some more rest. If you're not a pro athlete or a very serious amateur with very specific goals in mind, drop it back a notch. It's supposed to be enjoyable, right?

If your primary goal is to become a better/stronger climber, I think it would behoove you to reduce your caloric intake (intelligently) and shed 20 or 30 lbs. Based on the photo you referenced, you are definitely carrying enough body fat that you can safely lose 20 lbs. of FAT and you will still be WELL above 10% and healthy. If climbing strength is important to you, you can also afford to lose some muscle mass, which will of course happen whether you like it or not, if you run a caloric deficit.

At 250 lbs. I would speculate that you've reached that interesting plateau that a lot of us "older" and "bigger" guys face: where improvements in technique start to taper off, tendon and ligament injuries start to become an issue, and simply dropping excess poundage will yield the most noticeable improvements. Speaking for myself, I topped out at the 11a/V3 level years ago, and given the amount of time I have historically devoted to climbing (about one day a week) I never got any better. During the periods where I dieted and dropped 10-15 pounds, I would definitely see it in my climbing, especially bouldering grade. I think my technique has slowly gotten better, which now allows me to hang at the same level, despite being an otherwise lazy bastard who loves pizza and beer. I have fluctuated between 165 and 210 lbs. over the last 15 years and my climbing was best at 170. My fingers were in constant pain at 210. I am happiest at 180-185, which is a nice balance between climbing hard (for me) and enjoying life.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

I've known some big boned muscle bound MFers in my life and as a skinny tall person verging on fatness in my mid 40s I can say the dude may abide, who knows really, only him.

13b, pinkpoint, Squamish bro

Marek Sapkovski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 65
David Sahalie wrote:going to go on a limb here and say that until the OP is climbing 12a, just climb and boulder. maybe keep the cardio for weight control.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly - up until mid-5.11 it's all about technique anyway, no strength training required. I even was able to drag my ass up a couple 7a routes about two weeks out of last round of chemo when I had trouble "climbing" a flight of stairs.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

OP, it's a hell of a thing to learn that what you thought was chisled is actually marbled. It's OK.

One thing that I don't think enough people have mentioned is that it is OK to lose muscle. Go for fat loss but reduce your intake and lay off those silly free weights. Waste some of that useless muscle. It is useless. We're on a climbing forum here remember.

Mark Paulson · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 141

I've never seen someone climb 5.12 at 250 lbs. I don't even know if I've seen someone climb 5.11 at 250.

In normal life, I would say that if you're happy with your routine, stick with it. Archery is awesome. However, you're posting on a rock climbing website, so I tend to think that optimizing your workouts and body for climbing is something you're interested in.

You're at a weight where attempting harder terrain would be dangerous for your fingers and connective tissue. You're only overtraining in that you're essentially a 200# guy climbing with a 50# weight vest, and a 50# weigh vest would constitute overtraining for pretty much anyone. I would say don't push the climbing unless the weight comes down--otherwise you're inviting injury. If you got down to 200#, it wouldn't feel like overtraining anymore.

Forget about using BMI as a meaningful comparative measurement tool- it doesn't take body morphology or fitness into consideration. Even Sharma's BMI makes him look like a fatty compared to true ectomorphs like Graham or Ondra. BFP is a better measure, but is notoriously difficult to measure accurately, as you yourself have demonstrated. Any scale or handheld device that claims to accurately measure BFP is a scam. And if you've got one that says you're 15% BF at 250#, you should ask for your money back. Heck, I'm probably about 15% BF myself, and I'm 5'10.5"/153#.

Chad Miller · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 150
nicelegs wrote:OP, it's a hell of a thing to learn that what you thought was chisled is actually marbled. It's OK. One thing that I don't think enough people have mentioned is that it is OK to lose muscle. Go for fat loss but reduce your intake and lay off those silly free weights. Waste some of that useless muscle. It is useless. We're on a climbing forum here remember.
Oh I've never thought anything about my physique was chiseled. Maybe at one time sculpted in a melting butter type of way. ;)
Chad Miller · · Grand Junction, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 150
Mark Paulson wrote:I've never seen someone climb 5.12 at 250 lbs. I don't even know if I've seen someone climb 5.11 at 250. In normal life, I would say that if you're happy with your routine, stick with it. Archery is awesome. However, you're posting on a rock climbing website, so I tend to think that optimizing your workouts and body for climbing is something you're interested in. You're at a weight where attempting harder terrain would be dangerous for your fingers and connective tissue. You're only overtraining in that you're essentially a 200# guy climbing with a 50# weight vest, and a 50# weigh vest would constitute overtraining for pretty much anyone. I would say don't push the climbing unless the weight comes down--otherwise you're inviting injury. If you got down to 200#, it wouldn't feel like overtraining anymore. Forget about using BMI as a meaningful comparative measurement tool- it doesn't take body morphology or fitness into consideration. Even Sharma's BMI makes him look like a fatty compared to true ectomorphs like Graham or Ondra. BFP is a better measure, but is notoriously difficult to measure accurately, as you yourself have demonstrated. Any scale or handheld device that claims to accurately measure BFP is a scam. And if you've got one that says you're 15% BF at 250#, you should ask for your money back. Heck, I'm probably about 15% BF myself, and I'm 5'10.5"/153#.
Actually the weight and body fat where from a caliper test done four months ago prior to my thyroid getting out of whack. The person performing the test seemed a bit inexperienced but then the thyroid thing kicked in again and I never another test done.

Using the impedance scale I'm 259 pounds and 29% body fat. I had this confirmed by a caliper test done yesterday at my sports medicine doc. I don't have access to a water displacement test.

I'm working to lose as much fat as I can and until then I'll just keep doing my cardio and climbing lowly 10's.

Thanks for all your advice though, I do appreciate it!
Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20

Thyroid malfunction sucks; my sympathies.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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