Cochise Stronghold: Toofast Topos & Cochise Climbing

I guess I need to start by thanking MP for their influence over my project to date. I have had hundreds of people contact me: publishers, photographers, climbers alike that all have GENUINE interest in my project and it's success. Without my initial posts I would not have been able to find these incredible people. Also, a huge thanks to people who have already bought the guidebook and having faith that I will produce for them the guidebook they have always wanted with the complete information they need. You have catapulted this project forward with such momentum that I can see past this bump that MP forum discussions can become.

I could not have imagined the undertaking the guidebook would be. In fact, the Stronghold guidebook does not make any sense economically. This project will loose money and publishers have turned me down because of that. What does that mean?

This guidebook is for the community. To get you on climbs, that until now, only existed in your dreams.

You can choose to support it or not, but not doing so would only be a detriment to your own climbing. Others will snag those second ascents out from under you.

Without MP I would have never been able to get my message out there to the climbing community-that is the whole point of MP isn't it?

I figured if I were to want to go climbing on the Sheepshead would I go to the guidebook section or would I go the Sheepshead section? It seemed like the right place to post new information. Sorry if I was incorrect.

SO......anytime frame for these new guides??

The question that keeps going unanswered in the midst of the opinions and dick measuring.

Russ Walling wrote: Granted, some of it is a trade off, in here is a free topo, but you have to look at it on my site, which sells stuff. Is that for the good of the community? Perhaps not, but there is a value to a free topo and there is a value to getting eyes onto a commercial site. It is a balancing act to be sure.

Uh... Last time I checked, MP is in fact a site that contains free stuff in order to get you to look at it so they can sell stuff (there are ads on the top of each page). Stop pretending that there is a clear, cut n' dry difference between MP hosting ads within the "free" content (that was provided to it by the community) and someone like Toofast Topos or CochiseClimbing posting a link to info that is on their site that may require registration or purchase of a guidebook. You're being marketed to either way. Who cares? We're all free to ignore marketing.

Russ Walling wrote:As to your question of saying you need a DMM biner or yer gonna die, there is no problem with that. Even if you worked for DMM, and the need was true to the description, there is no problem. But if you are only posting the dropped name as a shill for the company, I would think that is lame and tacky. I'm not seeing the gray areas in this particular instance, and hopefully the admins can easily spot the difference between genuine info and a commercial promotion, and then act responsibly.

This is black and white? Really? Because there's only ever ONE safe way to do a route and so it's ok if I link to a product for sale that is the ONE product to keep you safe. (Sarcasm used liberally.) It seems pretty gray to me.

Russ, I'm glad that you see it all so clearly. But I don't really want your idea of black and white limiting what I get to see on MP or anywhere else for that matter. That's the point I was trying to make. Everyone comes to MP for a different reason. Limiting how people post on it based or your sense of what's appropriate (or anyone else's) is a trip down a road I don't want to take. I am totally fine using my good judgement about what to read, what links to click and how to judge the posters of content.

I am very grateful that the local Admin can distinguish between his own personal values (which he said CochiseClimbing crossed) and what may be best for the community. I'm glad that Hendrixson chose to open this up to discussion, rather than choosing to act as a Benevolent Dictator using his sole judgement to "easily spot the difference between genuine info and a commercial promotion, and then act responsibly."

In a public/community setting, if someone chooses to conduct themself in a way that you find is distasteful, you are totally allowed to judge them and modify your interactions with them. You don't like the way Toofast Topos or CochiseClimbing is doing their thing? Cool, don't go to their websites. But someone else is really going to think that their information or product is great.

Now, if I were the owner of MP, I'd make it clear that links to items for sale need to be via paid advertising; which I think is what just happened with the "LandLord." I'd also be transparent that I was making that decree because MP is site that is trying to generate revenue; which is not what just happened.

Geir wrote: Yes!!!!! I am envisioning a costume class right now...

This is the best idea ever. Charles, I'll trade costume pieces with you! I'm thinking a Poo Chest with Gorilla legs and a Horse Head. Oh, did I mention I have a horse costume too? Yeah. This is gonna be epic!

First of all, thanks for working on a book to both Geir and Cochise Climbing.

cochiseclimbing wrote:Others will snag those second ascents out from under you.

A first ascentionist has a unique experience on the rock. But, once beta is published a second ascentionist has the same experience as the 100th ascentionist. A second ascent doesn't really mean anything other than maybe an ego-boost.

How come all the posters on this thread used their real name except cochiseclimbing. What are "they" afraid of.

I too am curious if cochiseclimbing will note which routes are chipped and glued in the route descriptions in their new guide.

I hear there are several routes in Cochise that could have that info included in the description.

I know I shouldn't be bringing this up because some forest service person may be reading this post. Better to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. How convenient for the perpetrator.

Eric Sophiea wrote: This is the best idea ever. Charles, I'll trade costume pieces with you! I'm thinking a Poo Chest with Gorilla legs and a Horse Head. Oh, did I mention I have a horse costume too? Yeah. This is gonna be epic!

No can do, it's a onesie. But maybe we can have a wrestling match or something.

Russ Walling wrote:MP is a moderated site with posting and usage guidelines. Every day they limit what you get to see, so in fact your are already well down that road you don't want to take.

Very true. It's worth noting that those posting and usage guidelines are relatively transparent and I have looked at them and made a decision about my usage within the context of the guidelines. Arguing that there are already posting and usage guidelines and therefore adding more limitations is inherently ok is a fallacious argument (it's a variation on the "Slippery Slope"). Just because we already have limits does not necessarily make more limits ok. I'd rather keep MP as open as possible, even if some (or a lot) of what gets posted is not useful in my opinion.

For the record, this isn't about my personal feelings about links or advertising or people's conduct on MP. If MP were moderated based on what I personally think is valuable or appropriate, a vast majority of it would get chopped. Let's just keep it open and let each person judge how they want to negotiate it.

Charles Vernon wrote: No can do, it's a onesie. But maybe we can have a wrestling match or something.

This is just getting weird. I'm in!

What a fucking bummer thread.
Keep on throwing stones and enjoy the view from your glass houses.
Sick of these stupid fucking feuds.

Thanks for all the killer topos Geir
And thanks for all the bitchin routes Scott.

Sent from my adobe house in downtown Switzerland.

What jefe said!

+10 Jefe

Jefe, Robbie and Larry you guys have to lighten up.

I've got six weeks of no climbing ahead of me and I can't fill that time with nothing but a bunch of Kumbaya, we are the world, crap.

I pat people on the back all the time on this site. But controversy is much more interesting to read and comment on.

It's just climbing for Christ's sake. None of this stuff really matters.

I embrace the controversy and the warm and fuzzy.

Jimbo- good luck with the six week court ordered Route Poacher Time Out Program.
Come back strong. ;-)

Thanks Jefe,

Just keep the slander coming. Gives me a reason to log on in the morning!

Apologies for the lack of presence in this thread, I away climbing and camping at Isolation Canyon the past two days.

Thanks to all of you who constructively shared your opinions on the matter. Since Nick provided clear guidance and the posts in question have been removed or altered I consider the issue resolved. Thank you cochiseclimbing and Geir for promptly responding.

If anyone comes across content they feel violates the community and owner standards within my purview of Southern Arizona let me know. Ideally do this in a public manner for transparency. I have and will continue to publicly document any modifications I make.

Russ Walling, in answer to your question I have no administrative privileges in the forum. The administrators for each forum are listed under the forum heading. For this forum they are: Peter Franzen, Adam Stackhouse, M Sprague, saxfiend, Chris treggE. There are a number of at large mods as well.

Speaking as an individual, not an administrator, here...

I love climbing and can discuss it for hours. That Mountain Project provides liked minded individuals a place to gather is fantastic -- it saves our real life friends from ad nauseum discussions of sick moves, sketchy gear, and killer beta. That said I have no tolerance for childish taunts, name calling, and pointless controversy in real life or on the web.

Yes, there are a handful of routes in the Stronghold that have been chipped and glued. These routes are in the slim minority. Climbing ethics are fluid and have evolved over time. That there was experimentation in these methods comes as no surprise. As far as I'm aware there has been no chipping or gluing in the Stronghold in years. Seems like a moot issue.

As far as including such routes in a guidebook, I want information not a manifesto. Note that the route is chipped and/or glued and move on. Let me, the end user, make the choice. Simply omitting the route, while the author's prerogative, will likely just cause confusion.

Hendrixson wrote:As far as including such routes in a guidebook, I want information not a manifesto. Note that the route is chipped and/or glued and move on. Let me, the end user, make the choice. Simply omitting the route, while the author's prerogative, will likely just cause confusion.

As a sometime visiting climber to Cochise, I'd rather have all routes included.

I like Hendrixson's suggestion, and personally am looking forward to a new guidebook.

All the routes should be in the guide book, chipped or not. I am, however, eager to see how Scott addresses a chipped line in the route description in his new book and if all the routes that have been chipped will be in the guide.

I wish Scott and Tanya all the best in this guide book endeavor. If they do as good a job with the guide as they do with new routes it will undoubtedly be a great guide book.

For me personally buying a Cochise guide from Scott would be akin to buying a sensitivity training book from Attila the Hun. I just can't deal with the disconnect.

I would also like to remind everyone who is suggesting we "move on" from the chipping, that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

A full mia culpa from Scott in the intro of the book would be in order. Who better to remind future generations that chipping is crime against nature and all climbers than the chipper himself.

Scott has created hundreds of wonderful routes that hundreds of people will continue to enjoy for years to come. Because of this Scott can, and for the most part has, been forgiven for his transgressions in the Stronghold. This, I think, is as it should be.

However forgiving is not forgetting.

cochiseclimbing wrote:Others will snag those second ascents out from under you.

Noooooooooo!!!!!!! the horror!

cochiseclimbing wrote:This project will loose money and publishers have turned me down because of that.

wow $46 and your going to lose money? isn't sqeezing the lemon like $30? and thats from a guy that has been posting his routes on mp free for years and has made no effort to keep his routes and areas secret. that guy must be losing tons of money then. isnt he on his 2nd edition now?

just making observations here. once the guidebook comes out the routes and areas will all be posted up to mp for everyone so i really hope thats being factored into the financial expectations. personally thats too steep for my blood. i may be forced to wait for the online version, sorry.

best of luck to you both en your endevors. i know it cant be easy putting a book together. thanks again geir for all your hard work replacing bolts and making free topos.