Comparing climbing grades to running times

How accurate do you think this is? I got it from the RRG Fixed Gear Ethics group.

To repeat a tired cliche, climbing grades are subjective. Climbing a 5.9 bolt protected face climb, red-point, at Rumney is, for most people in my opinion, different than climbing a 5.9 hand crack at the New.

That said, being both a runner and a climber, the chart severely overstates the difficultly of running a 5K. A typical middle aged non-runner male, of normal weight, and without physical disability should be able to run a 5K in under 24 minutes with only 2-3 months of training. I think it would be more difficult for such a person to go from beginner to leading, onsight, 5.9s on at the Gunks in the same time.

I would propose in terms of how much training and dedication is needed to reach a time/grade the following, based on Gunks grades, a male times for a 5K.

27+ min - 5.5 and below
24 min - 5.6
21 min 5K - 5.7
18 min 30 sec - 5.9 (requires training and fitess but not superhuman ability)
17 min 30 sec - 5.10-

Colin is on the money. The op's list seems way off

meh i've got some shitty knees and no time to actually deal with them, climb 5.11 gear routes and the fastest i've run is around a 7:30/mile 5K. Wasn't it dave grahm that went from not climbing to climbing 5.14 in a year.

rock_fencer wrote:meh i've got some shitty knees and no time to actually deal with them, climb 5.11 gear routes and the fastest i've run is around a 7:30/mile 5K. Wasn't it dave grahm that went from not climbing to climbing 5.14 in a year.

I don't know if that's true about DG, but it does bring up a valid point - there is a large "genetic component" to both of these (and no doubt in other sports). One's body type and muscle type (fast vs slow twitch predominance) are both HUGE determinants of how far one can go performance-wise and what it'll take to get there. It explains why some school kids can throw a baseball 200 ft and others only 80. Why some can jump high; others can't. I know a certain young adult (ahem...me) who ran seriously (training every day) and never got his 5K under 19:40, while other young males could knock off a sub 6 minute mile off the couch. In terms of climbing grades, I've been climbing 60-100 days/year for 20 years (and more before that) and have been stopped at 5.11 the whole time. Others blast up 5.12 off the couch. To suggest than anyone with sufficient desire and proper training can climb 5.14, run a 15 min 5K, or do a host of other national caliber-level achievements is simply naive vis-a-vis genetics.

So my single data point to contribute is 5.11 trad = 19 min 5K

Rumney = downhill
Gunks = uphill

Ditto with Colin...

have to agree with gunkiemike. there are way to many variables to give this concept any validity. I am a runner and a climber. I have many friends who can easily out climb me but I can just as easily out run them.

running and climbing are two completely different activities requiring different muscle groups, different levels of flexibility, and way different mental conditioning. other than a general correlation of better physical fitness is helpful to both, it is comparing apples to oranges.

What Colin said. I used to run cross country in high school. Almost everyone on the team ran sub-20 minute 5ks. 18 minutes is totally doable by most reasonably athletic people who train. Idk if I'd say that about 5.13...

Aside from that, it's also totally different. Running isn't really a skill sport in the sense that climbing is. You can either run a 5 minute mile or you can't. On the other hand, you might be able to climb 5.13 face but flail on 5.9+ OW.

I recently watched a video of one of don whillans last climbs. it was solid 5.9 and he had no problems with it.

he was 40 lbs over weight, chain smoked the whole time, and I doubt he could have run to the mailbox and back. he died about a month later.

All I want to know is if my wife (a runner) is a better athlete than me (a climber).

Anyone care to speculate on marathon times vs climbing grades?

This is clearly very subjective but as a (mostly former) runner I do think it is fun to consider.

I agree with Colin that your average, reasonably fit individual (i.e. not obese) who takes up running as a hobby should be able to run sub-25 pretty soon and without any technical training. While the same might be true for climbing 5.10 in the gym, I do not think it is true for becoming a versatile 5.10 onsight climber.

That said, I think 17:30 is probably harder to achieve for most than 5.10-. My stab at it:

5.9 - Sub-25
5.10 - Sub-21
5.11 - Sub-18
5.12 - Sub-17
5.13 - Sub-16
5.13+/14- - Sub-15
5.14 - Sub-14
5.15 - Sub-13

Slightly off topic, but on a rainy afternoon in the pub we were reflecting on the film of Ueli Steck doing the 1938 route on the Eiger in 2:47. This is a speed of 900m/hr or 15m/min.

We now sometime calculate our speed in units of "Steck" when we want to feel depressed.

So if a 10 pitch 300m route has taken us 4 hours, we have been moving at a speed of 75m/hr, or 75/900 = 0.08 Steck!

Possibly we need to get out more.

I dunno, I can climb most 12-s in a couple goes. But I don't think I could run a 5k in less than 20 min.

I am pretty sure the chart applies to sport climbing, not cranking in the gunks, and it likely applies to redpoints. Why? Well, 5.15c is on there. How many people have onsighted 5.15c? (zero) How many 5.15 trad lines are there? (zero). And of course the chart was made by the RRG Fixed Gear Ethics, which it's just a wild guess, but I am pretty sure they are mostly sport climbers ;)

So if we consider the difficulty of redpoint projecting one 5.13a sport climb outside (say in 15 goes or less), and compare that to running a 5k in 18m, I think those two events are fairly comparable. I think both of those are the upper limit of what an average, quite-dedicated climber or runner is capable of.

I've been an athlete all my life and particupated in just about every sport there is. Running and climbing are the only things that I have excelled in. I'll take a shot. "Sport" = redpoint grade and "trad" = onsight grade, both single pitch.

Give me a 21 year old university student that parties once or twice a week, hits the gym once a week and plays a few games of pick up basketball every week. In 3 months I could have them running a 21 min 5k. In 6 months, easily sub-20 min. After a year, I'd give them a 50-50 chance at breaking 18:30.

Same person, assuming that they are able to learn the technical skills required and that they can handle the risk... I could have them red-pointing 5.10 sport and onsighting 5.6-5.7 trad in 3 months. 5.11a sport and 5.8-5.9 trad after 6 months. After year, 50-50 chance that they could redpoint 5.11d and onsight solid 5.10 trad.

I could sit on a couch for years and still climb 5.11.

The same isn't true about even finishing 5k.

<5.7 22:00
5.8 20:00
5.9 19:00
5.10 18:00
5.11 17:00
5.12 16:00
5.13 15:00
5.14- 14:30
5.14+ 13:30
5.15- 13:00

There is no correlation in run times on flat ground to climbing performance. I was never a fast runner even when I was in the Army. however I could out run everyone one once we got into talus and steep slabs, I have climbed trad 5.11 but have never ran 5k faster than 28 min. I have also seen a guy that ran two miles in under 10 minutes that couldn't do 3 pullups.

I think the comparison is completely acceptable in relative terms by comparing the percentile of participants that preform at each level in each sport. The tough part to figure out without actual numbers would be the middle to back end of the groups but I would say we could make petty direct comparisons of the top 1/3 of each sport, who I would generally say are the people who are have dedicated a few years to reaching an above average performance level. As seen on the chart the hardest climbing grade climbed yet is 5.15c and the 5k world record of 12:37. Only one person has run 12:37 and for the sake of a good looking graph lets say that there is one climber who has climbed the hardest route ever, although that statement is a little more relative. Now let's look at the next segment back from the number one spots, the elites of each group. In running the cut off is around 13:30 and climbing I would say low 14s (I probably can speak stronger to running numbers than my climbing ones so feel free to amend these a little). With a 13:30 5k you may not be sponsored (which isn't that strong of a benchmark anyway) but you will be able to compete national and international competition. I think that equates to the low 5.14 to mid 5.14 range. From 13:30 to 14:30 is when the bell-curve begins to shoot up. At 13:31 you are a top male collegiate runner but as a 14:30 runner there could very well be 300-400 people faster than you just in the collegiate system. I would pair 14:30 with 5.13 b/c. In both sports those performances require a lot of dedication and focus excluding the outliers who reach those points quicker and easier than others.
As to not make this a really long post here is the continuation of my opinion:

15:00 - 5.13
16:00 - 5.12b
17:00 - 5.11c
18:00 - 5.10 Thousands of high schoolers run this every year
20:00 - 5.8 Time for average to below average high schoolers
22:00 - 5.6 Time for just beginning high schoolers

I will probably insult a lot of people but this is just based on 40 yrs of climbing experience where I was also a runner mucgh of the time....And I am including the Gunks, (having spent 12 yrs climbing at the Gunks living in NYC and New Jersey before moving west)....

I could probably take a beginning climber and within 6 mos have them climbing .5.10 trad SAFELY within 6 mos,, 5.11 within a year, and depending how they think and their physical ability and their motor skills 5.12 trad in two years. For running, I could have someone running sub 18 for a 5K in 6 mos, sub 16 in two year.

The question is , do you want to put in the time and energy I would require you to put in. To do the above, I'd ask you to be climbing outside 3-4 days a week and for running I'd be asking you to be running every day for the first 6 mos and then twice a day for the first two years.... Most people don't wantt to (or don't have the time to))...

If you are think I am blowing smoke, just as a point of reference, a month ago after not running for 3 yrs (because of a broken leg and two knee surgeries because of a bouldering fall, and a broken neck from a low speed mountain biking accident) I placed 3rd in masters in a Flagstaff race (a really competitive running town where we have lots of world record holders train). To do this I had spent 5 of the previous 10 yrs training with guys that were sub 2:14 marathoners...

as for climbing, the profile pix was taken on a fun 5.12 which was the first route I did after having knee surgery 2 yrs ago. After being partially paralyzed due to a spinal injury from mountain biking my first climb back was a 5.10. But this is because I have 40yrs of climbing experience.

How do you get to these levels.

Climbing: you need to climb consistantly at the levels to create a base. At the Gunks, no offense but most people will stay on the more moderate climbs since they are pretty good. But if you climbed outside only leading 3-4 days a week starting for 3 wks on 5.5' and 5.6's, a month climbing 4 days a week outside climbing only 5.7's, the next 3 weeks only climbing 5.8's, the next 4-6 weeks climbing 5.9's ,...... you could easily got to those levels...

as for running, if you run with people training to race sub 18 for 6 mos, accepting that the first -4 mos you will absolutely suffer every day, you'll get there.

The thing is most people don't have the time (I don't either anymore) or the desire to spend that kind of time. Also you'd probably have to become an inconsiderate ass if you don't have all the time in the world. Lets be honest about the reasons. Its not that its not possible, but everyone needs to make choices in our lives with what we are willing to do, to give up, how we spend our time. Its life. If you decide to live in a city where you can work, and climb outside 1-2 days a week, as opposed to somewhere, where you can climb outside 4 days a week; it will have affects. Same goes with if you decide to watch TV instead of climbing, or eating that donut(s) instead of oatmeal for breakfast. Life is about trade-offs. Just be honest with yourself.

I will insult a lot of people, but if I am insulting, its because of the ego.