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Accident on Manic Crack in NM

Jburton · · Ogden · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
pokey wrote: Did the cams pop one after another in sequential order from top to bottom as they were weighted by the climber, or did the first and second cams pop from rope tension by the belayer?
From the initial reports of his belayer standing away from the route, it sounds like he probably zippered at least a few of the pieces. Top one pops when he takes while the rest are zippering to a horizontal placement as the rope is pulled out and whalla... User error is sometimes a bitch to admit, especially after so many things go wrong. Cam failure this was not. Not even close.
pokey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 25
LCC-Climber wrote: From the initial reports of his belayer standing away from the route, it sounds like he probably zippered at least a few of the pieces. Top one pops when he takes while the rest are zippering to a horizontal placement as the rope is pulled out and whalla... User error is sometimes a bitch to admit, especially after so many things go wrong. Cam failure this was not. Not even close.
Yeah, plenty of people have already recognized that bad placement is a given. But if other small flexible cams still hold in those bad placements while the X4s pop because of their trigger design pulling on the upper lobes when the stem bends, then there is still something to learn here. What we're trying to figure out is not "was it cam failure", but rather "was it less safe cam design in the case of user error".

The order of the pieces pulling is useful info. My guess is this:
  • take on the top piece at the groin - definite outward pull forcing the cam horizontal
  • bottom piece zippers and causes outward pull on middle piece
  • middle piece goes horizontal
  • top piece pulls
  • climber loads middle piece, kinking the stem and uncamming the top lobes

This might explain why the middle piece has a severe kink but the neither of the other two do (although Kerr hasnt provided full pictures of the other two).

A big question mark is:
  • the climber could not have loaded the bottom piece because it is 10 ft up but there is 15 ft of rope out above it
  • it looks a lot like the bottom piece umbrella'd, but is outward zippering pull from the rope tension really enough to umbrella a cam?

I still find it funny that we were promised severely damaged cams! (in bold) and all we got was a kinked stem and a few broken trigger wires.
Jburton · · Ogden · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
pokey wrote: I still find it funny that we were promised severely damaged cams! (in bold) and all we got was a kinked stem and a few broken trigger wires.
Bingo.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

Was it in fact the middle cam that kinked? I don't remember reading that but could be wrong

jeffblankman · · San Diego, Ca · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 360
Kerr Adams wrote:A few photos.
Anyone else notice that photo #3 (the alleged .4 X4 cam) does not look like an X4 cam? It looks like a Metolius MasterCam to me. The cloth trigger wires are a giveaway. Also the rigid stem is clearly a different shape/design than the other two cams pictured.

Not taking a position either way as the the cause of the fall, just pointing out that one of the photos is not an X4.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
jeffblankman wrote: Anyone else notice that photo #3 (the alleged .4 X4 cam) does not look like an X4 cam? It looks like a Metolius MasterCam to me. The cloth trigger wires are a giveaway. Also the rigid stem is clearly a different shape/design than the other two cams pictured. Not taking a position either way as the the cause of the fall, just pointing out that one of the photos is not an X4.
I don't own them, but it looks like from BD's picture that the small X4's use a wire trigger and the larger ones use a cord.
Jonathan Dull · · Boone, NC · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 415
csproul wrote: I don't own them, but it looks like from BD's picture that the small X4's use a wire trigger and the larger ones use a cord.
You're correct.
jeffblankman · · San Diego, Ca · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 360

You're right. I found this:

Cam comparison

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
George Perkins wrote:A lot of recommendations above on using stoppers, which I agree with in principle. On Manic Crack, however, cams are simpler and better placements. On this crack, if I’m not confident, I’d rather put in 2 cams from the same stance 6” apart from one another, than 1 nut. It's rare to see anyone place passive pro on this climb, especially low in the route.
it all depends on the crack of course

most cracks ive come across though almost always have good stopper placements if you look for them unless they are absolutely parallel, especially if its uneven rock

for the onsight cams may well be the way to go ... for redpoints i find that once you work out the gear youll find often find good stopper placements

ill whip on a med nut (equivalent to a 0.3/4 C4/X4) all day long ... and even if we dont think the cam will pull, enough whippers will damage a cam ... a nut is cheap and durable

my suggestion for newer folks reading this thread is try to work out a few nut placements on the redpoint ... a mix of gear (you want cams to mitigate outwards pull) works quite well

;)
Bronco · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 0

Informative thread. Here's my observation: I wish I could lead 5.11.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

bearbreeder...... I agree 100%

I would trust a stopper, buried in a uneven crack way more then a cam stuck in the same crack.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Bronco wrote:Informative thread. Here's my observation: I wish I could lead 5.11.
you can ... its a matter of time and dedication

i can get anyone to redpoint a 5.11 or two out in squamish ... if yr here you know the ones

not that this makes you a 5.11 climber ... but its a matter of finding the "right" climb and working it to death ... if thats your goal

ive had people redpoint no harder than 5.9s send the right 5.11s trad after a few tries

redpointing moderate grades is simply a matter of working out the gear and move sequence ... then beating down the climb to viciously and continuously like a baby seal

;)
Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
bearbreeder wrote: you can ... its a matter of time and dedication i can get anyone to redpoint a 5.11 or two out in squamish ... if yr here you know the ones not that this makes you a 5.11 climber ... but its a matter of finding the "right" climb and working it to death ... if thats your goal ive had people redpoint no harder than 5.9s send the right 5.11s trad after a few tries redpointing moderate grades is simply a matter of working out the gear and move sequence ... then beating down the climb to viciously and continuously like a baby seal ;)
The rest of us with average to large genitalia don't worry about climbing certain grades just to say we did it.

Wink.
Joe Crawford · · Truckee, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 105

both in response to bearbreeder's last comment and the nature of this thread generally.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Adam Burch wrote: The rest of us with average to large genitalia don't worry about climbing certain grades just to say we did it. Wink.
its your call what you want to do

when i tell my partners who climb 5.9 they can send 5.11 trad in a few days ... the joy on their face when they send the sucker is worth it IMO

its worth the hours of being a belay biatch while they work out the moves over and over again

how you want to climb is up to you

;)
Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
bearbreeder wrote: its your call what you want to do when i tell my partners who climb 5.9 they can send 5.11 trad in a few days ... the joy on their face when they send the sucker is worth it IMO its worth the hours of being a belay biatch while they work out the moves over and over again how you want to climb is up to you ;)
Fair enough
Kerr Adams · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 155
JoeCrawford wrote: both in response to bearbreeder's last comment and the nature of this thread generally.
  • snicker*
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Guy Keesee wrote:Kerr.... good to see your going to be OK. Lots of internet flaming here.... not to productive IMHO. I have not climbed at the place in NM, but the stone looks a lot like the ORG and I climb there a lot. A word of advise: Use stoppers, they hold better than MICRO CAMS so mix up the protection, and never TAKE, on thin gear.
i'm surprised nobody has pointed out how silly the last 2 statements are. who says stoppers hold better than micro cams? totally depends on the placement. also, never TAKE on thin gear??? really??? yeah, it's a lot better just to climb willy nilly above it and whip instead. thin gear isn't much different then not-thin gear. if its good, its good and if its not, its not. not that .3 or .4 camalots are thin gear in the first place....
Noah Haber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 78
slim wrote: i'm surprised nobody has pointed out how silly the last 2 statements are.
This whole thread is a steaming pile of silly.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
shoo wrote: This whole thread is a steaming pile of silly.
shoo.... got you to check it out... pretty silly- true.

I have watched several "ground falls" .... and that is what is being discussed right here... all of them involved somebody "TAKING" on thin marginal gear, cams or stoppers, that were at best A3 placements....

One at JT involved a DEATH after a poor fellow repeatedly TOOK and fell and TOOK somemore on his one thin cam placement, he never reset it, just treated it like it was a bolt.... a cheap way to die.

and one of my friends, placed a small cam, then TOOK and it pulled out and he fell on his head!!!! Knocked himself out cold (with helmet on) for about 30 min .... yes we were very worried.

All I am trying to say is this: Never take on your thin crummy placements, down climb to the ground - pull test the sucker, and never settle for crap placements.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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