Ethical Question
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I can see myself being on either side of this. You did take a looong time completing the route, but the FAist should have probably made more of an effort to contact you. Maybe he tried but you guys were out traveling the world or whatever? |
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Solid Ivan reference. |
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VaGenius wrote: Using Aleister Crowley quotes to give moral quandaries a solution is like being an evangelical preacher who bangs dudes in truck stops. Puzzling and ...well, puzzling.Not a climber, but Hassan Sabbah, The Old Man of the Mountain, The Master of the Assassins is equally quotable- In the middle of the night Hassan asked them to leave him alone. Good bye, he said, and remember that my spirit watches. As long as you are worthy of it, worthy of understanding it, it will counsel you , and lower still he whispered to Buzurg-Humid, Remember remember .nothing is true, everything is permitted. At the end of the night, Hassan died. |
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Mark E Dixon wrote: Remember remember .nothing is true, everything is permitted..F-yea everything is permitted. Like stealing a route, then retro bolting it, then chopping those retro bolts, then fist fights in the parking lot, then a law suit from the loser. Life and climbing permit ambiguity, relativity, and violence. Cheers to life. |
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AdamHertzberg wrote:If the FA used your bolts for the FA, then there's no dilemma, bolt the rest of the route. That said, if you can't find humor in the relevant name he gave the route that was taking you years to complete, then you have some self examination to do./thread |
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drmartindell...add your two bolts. It's your route. What is the route poaching, dick moves name? |
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Benjamin Chapman wrote:drmartindell...add your two bolts. It's your route. What is the route poaching, dick moves name?The purpose of thread was to get opinions and hear others advice not to publicly bad mouth another climber. For that reason I would rather not say his name. But thank you for your advice. |
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Around here in general folks have a season to put up a route and finished it. Did your friend red tag the route? If not how is anyone to know the route was unfinished? If that is the case the route name is a good poke for not doing that and for taking so long to finish the route. Now that it has been lead no additional bolts seem necessary. Move on and find another project. If yer friend is really worked up about it remove your hangers and use them else where. |
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OP, sounds like you are a bit of a weanie. The route goes without the extra bolts you think it needs. Get rid of your stick clip and get some sac. Get up there and claim the second ascent to save face. You waited long enough. Every sport route doesn't need bolts every 5 feet. |
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Greg D wrote:OP, sounds like you are a bit of a weanie. The route goes without the extra bolts you think it needs. Get rid of your stick clip and get some sac. Every sport route doesn't need bolts every 5 feet.Nice. You assume quite a bit with that comment. I'll take it for what it's worth though. |
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Greg D wrote:OP, sounds like you are a bit of a weanie. The route goes without the extra bolts you think it needs. Get rid of your stick clip and get some sac. Get up there and claim the second ascent to save face. You waited long enough. Every sport route doesn't need bolts every 5 feet.Yes! Exactly! |
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Meme Guy wrote: Yes! Exactly!No, not exactly. And I only take the time to respond because you, Meme Guy, are one of my favorite contributors to this site. I am not what I consider to be a bold climber, but that doesn't mean I'm a weenie. The route in question goes at about .11a/b. That's just about the limit of what I can lead. The route needs two bolts. One low on the route, to protect a ground fall (the terrain at the base of the route is steep and filled with large rocks too) and the other at the crux. The crux was protected by slinging a very sharp horn of rock that no one would ever want to consider falling on. Sharp and not very big. I don't own a stick clip. I almost used one once in Owens River Gorge, but decided to just climb up to the bolt. Also, let's not forget that this isn't my project. I posted originally to gather input from others concerning whether my friend should finish his route after it was poached. Overall the input and advice has been really helpful and I do appreciate all the thoughts both pro and con in regards to the 'retro bolting'. |
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drmartindell wrote: No, not exactly. And I only take the time to respond because you, Meme Guy, are one of my favorite contributors to this site. I am not what I consider to be a bold climber, but that doesn't mean I'm a weenie. The route in question goes at about .11a/b. That's just about the limit of what I can lead. The route needs two bolts. One low on the route, to protect a ground fall (the terrain at the base of the route is steep and filled with large rocks too) and the other at the crux. The crux was protected by slinging a very sharp horn of rock that no one would ever want to consider falling on. Sharp and not very big. I don't own a stick clip. I almost used one once in Owens River Gorge, but decided to just climb up to the bolt. Also, let's not forget that this isn't my project. I posted originally to gather input from others concerning whether my friend should finish his route after it was poached. Overall the input and advice has been really helpful and I do appreciate all the thoughts both pro and con in regards to the 'retro bolting'.So to clarify -- your friend partially equipped a route and left it unsent for YEARS. Then some guy comes along and FAs it with the hardware that was in place. Now your friend wants to go back and add bolts because it was "his" route? If it was over the course of a season, or maybe even two, and your friend was actively working the route, maybe I could see the accusations of "poaching". But after YEARS? Just because you put a few bolts in a rock doesn't mean you get FA privileges forever and always. There is no question that this unnamed dude is the FA, by what seems to me like pretty legit means. So then the question is should you retrobolt the route? That one is up to you but let's not confuse things with accusations of "stealing" a route. |
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Ryan Watts wrote: So to clarify -- your friend partially equipped a route and left it unsent for YEARS. Then some guy comes along and FAs it with the hardware that was in place. Now your friend wants to go back and add bolts because it was "his" route? If it was over the course of a season, or maybe even two, and your friend was actively working the route, maybe I could see the accusations of "poaching". But after YEARS? Just because you put a few bolts in a rock doesn't mean you get FA privileges forever and always. There is no question that this unnamed dude is the FA, by what seems to me like pretty legit means. So then the question is should you retrobolt the route? That one is up to you but let's not confuse things with accusations of "stealing" a route.Good points. Thanks. |
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Make a minor variation, add the needed bolts and rename the whole rig. |
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Be sure to check with the fa before adding any bolts to the route |
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When a line speaks to you, you climb it. You don't sit around for 4 years, making excuses. |
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Imagine another scenario from the point of view of the snide FA'er: |
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This sounds like one of those things to work yourself up over when there isn't much to get worked up over. |
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Somebody needs to call the Waaaahmbulance. |