Mountain Project Logo

Ethical Question

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I can see myself being on either side of this. You did take a looong time completing the route, but the FAist should have probably made more of an effort to contact you. Maybe he tried but you guys were out traveling the world or whatever?

Anyway, put the last bolts in. There's no wrong doing there. At all.

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325

Solid Ivan reference.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
VaGenius wrote: Using Aleister Crowley quotes to give moral quandaries a solution is like being an evangelical preacher who bangs dudes in truck stops. Puzzling and ...well, puzzling.
Not a climber, but Hassan Sabbah, The Old Man of the Mountain, ‘The Master of the Assassins’ is equally quotable-

In the middle of the night Hassan asked them to leave him alone. “Good bye,” he said, “and remember that my spirit watches. As long as you are worthy of it, worthy of understanding it, it will counsel you…,” and lower still he whispered to Buzurg-Humid, “Remember…remember….nothing is true, everything is permitted.” At the end of the night, Hassan died.
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Mark E Dixon wrote: “Remember…remember….nothing is true, everything is permitted.”.
F-yea everything is permitted. Like stealing a route, then retro bolting it, then chopping those retro bolts, then fist fights in the parking lot, then a law suit from the loser.

Life and climbing permit ambiguity, relativity, and violence. Cheers to life.
Alex Whitman · · Chattanooga · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 440
AdamHertzberg wrote:If the FA used your bolts for the FA, then there's no dilemma, bolt the rest of the route. That said, if you can't find humor in the relevant name he gave the route that was taking you years to complete, then you have some self examination to do.
/thread
Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18,818

drmartindell...add your two bolts. It's your route. What is the route poaching, dick moves name?

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445
Benjamin Chapman wrote:drmartindell...add your two bolts. It's your route. What is the route poaching, dick moves name?
The purpose of thread was to get opinions and hear others advice not to publicly bad mouth another climber. For that reason I would rather not say his name. But thank you for your advice.
Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

Around here in general folks have a season to put up a route and finished it. Did your friend red tag the route? If not how is anyone to know the route was unfinished? If that is the case the route name is a good poke for not doing that and for taking so long to finish the route. Now that it has been lead no additional bolts seem necessary. Move on and find another project. If yer friend is really worked up about it remove your hangers and use them else where.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

OP, sounds like you are a bit of a weanie. The route goes without the extra bolts you think it needs. Get rid of your stick clip and get some sac. Get up there and claim the second ascent to save face. You waited long enough. Every sport route doesn't need bolts every 5 feet.

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445
Greg D wrote:OP, sounds like you are a bit of a weanie. The route goes without the extra bolts you think it needs. Get rid of your stick clip and get some sac. Every sport route doesn't need bolts every 5 feet.
Nice. You assume quite a bit with that comment. I'll take it for what it's worth though.
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
Greg D wrote:OP, sounds like you are a bit of a weanie. The route goes without the extra bolts you think it needs. Get rid of your stick clip and get some sac. Get up there and claim the second ascent to save face. You waited long enough. Every sport route doesn't need bolts every 5 feet.
Yes! Exactly!
sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445
Meme Guy wrote: Yes! Exactly!
No, not exactly. And I only take the time to respond because you, Meme Guy, are one of my favorite contributors to this site.

I am not what I consider to be a bold climber, but that doesn't mean I'm a weenie. The route in question goes at about .11a/b. That's just about the limit of what I can lead. The route needs two bolts. One low on the route, to protect a ground fall (the terrain at the base of the route is steep and filled with large rocks too) and the other at the crux. The crux was protected by slinging a very sharp horn of rock that no one would ever want to consider falling on. Sharp and not very big.

I don't own a stick clip. I almost used one once in Owens River Gorge, but decided to just climb up to the bolt.

Also, let's not forget that this isn't my project. I posted originally to gather input from others concerning whether my friend should finish his route after it was poached.

Overall the input and advice has been really helpful and I do appreciate all the thoughts both pro and con in regards to the 'retro bolting'.
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25
drmartindell wrote: No, not exactly. And I only take the time to respond because you, Meme Guy, are one of my favorite contributors to this site. I am not what I consider to be a bold climber, but that doesn't mean I'm a weenie. The route in question goes at about .11a/b. That's just about the limit of what I can lead. The route needs two bolts. One low on the route, to protect a ground fall (the terrain at the base of the route is steep and filled with large rocks too) and the other at the crux. The crux was protected by slinging a very sharp horn of rock that no one would ever want to consider falling on. Sharp and not very big. I don't own a stick clip. I almost used one once in Owens River Gorge, but decided to just climb up to the bolt. Also, let's not forget that this isn't my project. I posted originally to gather input from others concerning whether my friend should finish his route after it was poached. Overall the input and advice has been really helpful and I do appreciate all the thoughts both pro and con in regards to the 'retro bolting'.
So to clarify -- your friend partially equipped a route and left it unsent for YEARS. Then some guy comes along and FAs it with the hardware that was in place. Now your friend wants to go back and add bolts because it was "his" route?

If it was over the course of a season, or maybe even two, and your friend was actively working the route, maybe I could see the accusations of "poaching". But after YEARS? Just because you put a few bolts in a rock doesn't mean you get FA privileges forever and always.

There is no question that this unnamed dude is the FA, by what seems to me like pretty legit means. So then the question is should you retrobolt the route? That one is up to you but let's not confuse things with accusations of "stealing" a route.
sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445
Ryan Watts wrote: So to clarify -- your friend partially equipped a route and left it unsent for YEARS. Then some guy comes along and FAs it with the hardware that was in place. Now your friend wants to go back and add bolts because it was "his" route? If it was over the course of a season, or maybe even two, and your friend was actively working the route, maybe I could see the accusations of "poaching". But after YEARS? Just because you put a few bolts in a rock doesn't mean you get FA privileges forever and always. There is no question that this unnamed dude is the FA, by what seems to me like pretty legit means. So then the question is should you retrobolt the route? That one is up to you but let's not confuse things with accusations of "stealing" a route.
Good points. Thanks.
Tzilla Rapdrilla · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 955

Make a minor variation, add the needed bolts and rename the whole rig.

Daniel Winder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 101

Be sure to check with the fa before adding any bolts to the route

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

When a line speaks to you, you climb it. You don't sit around for 4 years, making excuses.

Sounds to me like your friend wasn't really passionate about his project, yet he wants to take credit for it becoming the "gem of the crag." Moreover, it sounds like he wasn't skilled (or bold) enough to climb the route in good style, and now that someone else has come along and done just that, he is embarrassed and upset.

If someone else has climbed a route sans bolts, it has to make you wonder, why did your friend need them in the first place?

David Tysinger · · Winston-Salem, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 0

Imagine another scenario from the point of view of the snide FA'er:

Suppose, a new crag was just discovered and you heard about it and decided to check it out. You see an awesome route that looks like it can go free. You get on it and lead it, ground up and discover some bolts higher up, undecided you don't know what you did was a FA or not.

A year or two later, you decide to hop on the same route again because its such a good route, only this time, somebody makes a snide comment that you can't lead the route- its not finished. Totally baffled, you respond that its already been led in its current state (without the bolts).

If it were me (the FA'er), I would be angry that someone would try to tell me what I can and can't climb, especially on PUBLIC LAND, and especially on a route that I have already put my neck on the line leading before, possibly as a FA, and especially at a crag with only a few routes with a big approach.

I agree that it sucks for your friend but I think you should consult with FA'er before adding bolts.

BTW is this the climb in question?
mountainproject.com/v/unkno…

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

This sounds like one of those things to work yourself up over when there isn't much to get worked up over.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Somebody needs to call the Waaaahmbulance.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Ethical Question"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.