Accident on Manic Crack in NM

JLP wrote:The first cam looks fine. Bend it straight and put it back on your rack. Next time place it in the direction of expected load. Kind of 101. The second one looks like it caught some random feature in the crack and, judging from the depth of the gouge, possibly made the difference for you between the hospital and the morgue. Send BD a thank-you note. The 3rd one needs a new trigger wire. It was probably tipped out and umbrella'd. BD will likely fix it for free. They probably build up a pile of similar nOOb-damaged cams weekly. Lastly - learn to place gear and lead climb. You obviously suck at it and are lucky to be alive. PS, BD is not calling in the experts to look at this situation, they can see the obvious, too. They've been doing this way longer than you've been alive, you're not the first to pull a cam. They're being polite, diligent, "professional", etc. Over at the water cooler, however, they are calling you a dumb-ass - I can promise you this.

Pretty far out of line. Would you use those words when speaking to someone in person as they lay in a hospital bed?

Toby B wrote:Is Manic Crack smooth on the interior or does the rock down there have lots of crystals and irregularities that would prevent a cam from rotating relatively freely? Is one of the two cams you posted the one you took on? I hope you heal up well man. Really sorry this happened. The cams look super jacked up - there's a lot of skepticism in this thread but I'm open-minded at this point.

I think this post, along with a few others, strikes the right tone considering the circumstances. Just this past weekend I took a ~25ft fall at indian creek by pulling out a cam. In my case, the cam was a bit smaller than ideal for the placement (last of that size as the crack slowly widened)and I was able to figure out after the fact that I knocked the cam with my foot as I climbed past it. Definitely pilot error in my case, and I'm very lucky to have sufficiently protected the rest of the climb and fallen into empty space.

In many types of rock its easy to place a cam that looks good but might be compromised to some extent by contact with crystals or other inclusions in the rock(as Toby's post alludes to), even if you've placed the same cam in the same placement before. Things of this sort can happen quite easily to anyone, necessitating the constant inner dialogue, "where will I land if this piece blows?"

Even if this type of failure constitutes a placement failure (rather than equipment failure), the "this would never happen to me, I've been climbing for years, I think I know how to place a cam" attitude that occasionally appears throughout this thread is ignorant and foolish, to say nothing of whether it's insensitive. Let's move past whether or not the first post was alarmist or premature and focus on what we the community can learn or be reminded of.

Edit: Tony -> Toby

re: placement

What else are you supposed to do in a vertical crack? You have to place perpendicular to the line of a fall. Are we calling that poor placement? We all do that.

Russ Keane wrote:re: The chunk of metal missing Isn't that the part of the lobe that would only contact the rock if you squeezed it too much and shoved it in without allowing it to re-cam back a little? I believe it's the curved part of the cam that should be the point of contact with the rock.

a possible scenario for the gouging is the placement was in a crack with irregularities

if the cam rotated downwards in a fall and the gouged area was against an irregularity, then that area could get damaged ...

IMO opinion though, if the 0.4 X4 is built to the same quality of the equivalent C4, then simply sitting on the cam placed above on a take shouldnt gouge the metal even in a not so good placement

if however one "took" a bit above the cam ...

Russ Keane wrote:re: placement What else are you supposed to do in a vertical crack? You have to place perpendicular to the line of a fall. Are we calling that poor placement? We all do that.

we should place cams INLINE with the fall path ... perpendicular means sticking straight out horizontally

Russ Keane wrote:re: placement What else are you supposed to do in a vertical crack? You have to place perpendicular to the line of a fall. Are we calling that poor placement? We all do that.

Horizontal??

JLP wrote:The OP is arrogant. He indignantly waves the AMGA flag, blames BD and comes here to create drama, all to avoid facing the obvious reality. The universe has thus put him in the hospital for awhile. BD will continue selling cams and noobs will continue misusing them and getting hurt - same as it ever was.

And assholes will continue to post on the internet; same as it ever was.

ok chuff --- my fault. If there's a tiny .3 size vertical finger crack, how many ways can you fit a cam in there? Are you seriously able to fit your hand in and rotate the cam to match the force of the fall? I am confused.

Actually, he didn't wave the AMGA flag, someone else did for him. Can't really blame him for that. However, I agree with you overall. His OP was alarmist and I have yet to see anything that doesn't end up with at least some user error as the answer to the question why.

Russ Keane wrote:ok chuff --- my fault. If there's a tiny .3 size vertical finger crack, how many ways can you fit a cam in there? Are you seriously able to fit your hand in and rotate the cam to match the force of the fall? I am confused.

Several ways most likely, especially if the crack is fairly uniform and parallel-sided. There's only one way to PROPERLY place it though, and it AIN'T PERPENDICULAR to the fall line.

Russ Keane wrote:re: placement What else are you supposed to do in a vertical crack? You have to place perpendicular to the line of a fall. Are we calling that poor placement? We all do that.

Wrong. We don't all do that. Pointing in anticipated direction of force is best.

Dave Alie wrote: I think this post, along with a few others, strikes the right tone considering the circumstances. Just this past weekend I took a ~25ft fall at indian creek by pulling out a cam. In my case, the cam was a bit smaller than ideal for the placement (last of that size as the crack slowly widened)and I was able to figure out after the fact that I knocked the cam with my foot as I climbed past it. Definitely pilot error in my case, and I'm very lucky to have sufficiently protected the rest of the climb and fallen into empty space. In many types of rock its easy to place a cam that looks good but might be compromised to some extent by contact with crystals or other inclusions in the rock(as Tony's post alludes to), even if you've placed the same cam in the same placement before. Things of this sort can happen quite easily to anyone, necessitating the constant inner dialogue, "where will I land if this piece blows?" Even if this type of failure constitutes a placement failure (rather than equipment failure), the "this would never happen to me, I've been climbing for years, I think I know how to place a cam" attitude that occasionally appears throughout this thread is ignorant and foolish, to say nothing of whether it's insensitive. Let's move past whether or not the first post was alarmist or premature and focus on what we the community can learn or be reminded of.

I think people are disgruntled because Kerr had this very attitude when he decided to sound the alarm with outrageous claims in the first place. Props to him for finally offering up something concrete. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but the evidence here didn't warrant the so-called "public service announcement" whatsoever. It might do him a little bit of good to be called out on it. After all, he said he believes himself to be very experienced and that he made perfect placements. I find that hard to swallow, especially given his reaction to the incident.

All I'm saying is, sometimes you have no choice. There is one way for it to fit and it's better than nothing at that point.

All I'm saying is, you're wrong. Stick to bouldering.

OK -- Every placement scenario involves a wide range of placement options, including the one that is "ideal" and is perfectly in synch with how the pro is designed to work. Yup, my bad.

Russ Keane wrote:All I'm saying is, sometimes you have no choice. There is one way for it to fit and it's better than nothing at that point.

Wrong. If the gear is bad, don't place it. Or place it in hopes for it to hold and place another bomber gear soon. Otherwise, down climb to your last good piece.

Kerr, glad you survived this fall, and hope your bones mend to where they need to be so you can climb again.

I've not pulled gear myself (good luck/placements/???) and I'd imagine it's quite the mind-f**k in addition to hurting your body.

In the spirit of fighting online, I'd be willing to (on your behalf) fist-fight all of the employees of BD at once at a location of their choosing,

OR

visit the crag you were climbing at and punch it out with the actual crack that you fell on.

In either case, may the best man (me) win.

Let me know if either of these are necessary. You can PM me if you like.

Russ Keane wrote:All I'm saying is, sometimes you have no choice. There is one way for it to fit and it's better than nothing at that point.

well if a vertical crack is continuous

- then theres plenty of placements if its generally parallel ... you should be able to get the cam in a placement inline with the fall

- if its more irregular and pod like, then it often takes pretty good nuts ... if youre worried about getting cams taking up your finger locks either place the cams at your chest, or use a nut which often takes up less space, and you can stack your fingers on top of it ... also many times using a smaller nut works better, just be cognizant of the lower rating of the smaller nut and placement

ive never seen a continuous crack out here that couldnt take enough good gear to prevent a ground fall unless were talking about flared pieces of shiet, and even those take decent offsets i find

now broken discontinuous cracks are a different beast

Quick theory on the .4: See shitty paint drawing below.

When fully retracted, the damaged part (the flat, back part) is at the top of the cam, with the flat of the lobe oriented roughly flat on top. If the cam is shoved in the back of a crack, this top part can be resting on some incongruity in the back of the crack, such as a crystal. This will stop the cam from rotating in a pull. Pull on the cam hard enough, it could shear through the surface metal. It's possible that this shearing could be contribute to failure (a cam that can't rotate can't hold) or could have happened as a result of the cam already pulling out, as in the proposed orientation, this cam could plausibly "stick" a bit more than the other lobes, propped by the flat part and the crystal.

Edit to add: even in the case that this is wrong, the back of the lobe should not be contributing in any meaningful sense to the cam holding. The fact that it is damaged is highly suggestive that the placement was bad. That, and it looks like it was shear damage, not a break.

Kerr Adams wrote:I would like some theories as to how the chunk of metal came off the .4

I would think that in a total umbrella, there would be a point at which that point of the lobe would impact the rock or perhaps if one lobe was retracted while the other was fully extended. To me that looks more like a deformation rather than a piece missing. It doesn't look like that piece could have umbrella'd.

Russ Keane wrote:ok chuff --- my fault. If there's a tiny .3 size vertical finger crack, how many ways can you fit a cam in there? Are you seriously able to fit your hand in and rotate the cam to match the force of the fall? I am confused.

http://www.wildcountry.com/files/public/Instruction_Booklets/V5129_WC_Helium_Friends_V82.pdf

Example 2b. . . bad. Example 2a. . . good.

Kerr, get well soon, and don't let it affect your motivation, this shit happens, you just climb in NM and close to the ground, so you hit it. Bad/good situation.

What really impresses me is the torrent of self righteous tards who think that perfect placement removes any risk of putting a cam on basalt. Wrong!!!!! You can minimize the risk on basalt, but NM basalt is kinda like limestone, and kinda a bad idea, like so many other fun things.

Most climbers like to believe themselves invincible, and attacking the inherent risk of putting a small cam in basalt is just one way to reassure ourselves that everything we do is controlled. Even condoms have a failure rate.

On the positive side, your alive, and that is a very positive side.