Accident on Manic Crack in NM

A few photos.

Boom

Take that you nay sayers

I would like some theories as to how the chunk of metal came off the .4

Sales of Black Diamond X4's just took a nose dive....

Looks to me (and I'm no expert on cam failure analysis!) like the first two cams were loaded in a direction other than how they were placed, i.e. they were placed more perpendicular to the rock and pulled down in the fall. I know that pretty much everyone does this often, but it can have consequences. This would explain both the kink in the stem and the bending of the lobe. Neither of the 1st two cams have the trigger wires broken and were not likely to have been umbrella failures. The 3rd cam, however, does have broken trigger wires and could have been an umbrella failure. What are these picture supposed to be showing that is evidence of cam failure? Are the stops sheared off-I don't own X4's so I don't know what they are supposed to look like?

For starters, the first cam was not in line with the direction of pull, as I suspected.

The second cam, with missing metal was where (edit: that lobe was minimally and the adjacent lobe maximally) retracted. Therefore, the "wrong" side of the lobe was touching the other side of the crack instead of or in addition to the adjacent lobe. This would "un cam" this particular lobe and not appose the opposite cam or at least demonstrate that the lobes were not in proper position at the time of loading.

The third cam was subjected to the greatest loads and a fairly high FF. Not ideal for small cams.

Are these cams in the order of the failures?

Edit: Not seeing any defect at this time. Just unfortunate sequence of events.

Last one def looks like umbrella failure... re the back of the lobe, is it possible the piece made contact with the wall after it was ripped out? Looks like the a high speed impact with a lot of force.

Tom-o Sapien wrote:Boom Take that you nay sayers

Did I miss something? Cam is mangled. Nothing is proven.

Kerr Adams wrote:I would like some theories as to how the chunk of metal came off the .4

What is your theory about how that chunk of metal missing would have caused the cam to pull out? Seems to me that spot on the cam should have little effect on the holding power of the cam, i.e. that part of the cam is not normally in contact with the rock in a perfect placement/fall, and would only come into contact if the cam shifted out of placement during a fall. I'm seriously not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see how these pictures show anything that suggests the cams (and not the placement) failed. But I'm certainly open to other interpretations.

BTW-what order were these cam in top->bottom; i.e. which pulled first on the take and which pulled 2nd and 3rd?

Hey Kerr. Thanks for posting the pics. What has BD's response been so far?

Kerr Adams wrote:A few photos.

i stand corrected ... the photos did get posted ;)

- the first 0.3 x4 has a serious kink right where the wire goes into the metal sleeve .. its possible that cam became perpendicular to the fall line at the time of impact ... this causes the cam to sleeve to lock into place and alot of force on the wire where it enters ... a cam that ends up perpendicular may not hold very well

repeated flexing/kinking of the wire that particular point has been responsible for several broken cams of the older WC/RE type, i posted up the possibility of this happening on cams eventually on the X4 thread

mountainproject.com/v/bd-x4…

- the 0.4 x4 probably shouldnt have that chunk of metal missing in a proper placement if you just took on it with the cam above your waist ...in a poor placement and if you "took" above the cam however sure the rock can gouge the metal ... cant tell very much without pics of the entire cam

- the last 0.3 x4 appears to be an umbrella failure on one lobe set ... its possible one side opened up, possibly from the cam walking ... there are no passively rated cam stops on those suckers below the 0.4 (which is why i still prefer the 0.3 C4 and the equivalent baby dragon for that size if it fits)

the difference between a good placement an a poor one is a matter of the tiniest fraction once you get down to the green alien/blue X/C4 size ad below ... your placements may have been totally fine till you went above them

or there may really be some "defect" with the X4s, who knows ... but the 0.3 X4s look consistent with cams shifting/placement issues to me ... the 0.4 X4 is the one i would be the most concerned about if you were below the piece in a good placement

small cams are not to be trusted, place them, but the margin for error is exceptionally small, and they do break and pull... if possible work a few nuts into the gear sequence

best wishes on your recovery and sorting it out with BD

NC Rock Climber wrote:Hey Kerr. Thanks for posting the pics. What has BD's response been so far?

They want to see them and are going to do some batch testing.

It would be useful to see a few pics of the .4 fully retracted.

Greg D wrote:It would be useful to see a few pics of the .4 fully retracted.

I can get that for you as soon as the cams are back in my possession.

Kerr Adams wrote: They want to see them and are going to do some batch testing.

This thread has generated a lot of clamoring for photos and debate over what happened. It is important to remember that Kerr got seriously hurt climbing. Regardless of all the other discussion, I just want to wish Kerr all the best with his recovery.

Kerr, if you feel like it, please provide us with an update. How are you feeling? How is the recovery going?

Is Manic Crack smooth on the interior or does the rock down there have lots of crystals and irregularities that would prevent a cam from rotating relatively freely? Is one of the two cams you posted the one you took on?

I hope you heal up well man. Really sorry this happened. The cams look super jacked up - there's a lot of skepticism in this thread but I'm open-minded at this point.

NC Rock Climber wrote: This thread has generated a lot of clamoring for photos and debate over what happened. It is important to remember that Kerr got seriously hurt climbing. Regardless of all the other discussion, I just want to wish Kerr all the best with his recovery. Kerr, if you feel like it, please provide us with an update. How are you feeling? How is the recovery going?

Yes...despite all the internet asshattery and debate of failure analysis that these photos are sure to generate, we should all keep this in mind. Whether this turns out to be placement related or actual cam failure, this could happen to most anyone, even if we all think we make perfect gear placements. Best wishes and speedy recovery.

re: The chunk of metal missing

Isn't that the part of the lobe that would only contact the rock if you squeezed it too much and shoved it in without allowing it to re-cam back a little? I believe it's the curved part of the cam that should be the point of contact with the rock.

hope you are on the mend and please post back future responses from BD.
Damage doesn't look much more than placement failure, as there is clearly no catastrophic failure of the piece itself (ie blown swage / braze / cracked lobe etc...) Also to reiterate what others have said, clearly these cams were not in line with force of impact whether they were placed well or not.