Accident on Manic Crack in NM

I dont understand why anyone would withhold pictures of supposed "device failure" (MULTIPLE i might add) simply to protect the manufactures of the devices that put you in the hospital in the first place. I feel stupider than shit for even wanting to believe this story. I am sorry about the injury, don't get me wrong. Thats awful. But don't use a well reputable business as your scapegoat for poor judgement. Im saddened that the community has to deal with these fallacies.
If this guy ends up suing BD, I would just forewarn you right now that their legal team is going to squat down and destroy your life simply with their bowel movements.

yeah can you believe it guys? He logged back onto mp just to announce that he's not posting the photos yet! Who does that?? Why wouldn't you just wait till you're ready and simply tell your story?

It's like he's hyping up some product he's selling, before the big unveil. No kidding he's trying to be professional, he's the greatest professional showman I've ever seen!
"Just wait ladies and gentlemen! You're not gonna wanna miss it! It's coming reeeal soon! It's all your fears AND dreams come true! And for a measly ten-dollar donation to my recovery fund, you get a SNEAK PEEK at one of twelve possible broken trigger wires! Collect Them All!!"

Kerr you claim you're doing all these shenanigans for the benefit of the community... and if you follow through, I'll give you props for that. I'm just giving you a hard time. But so far this has been a whole lotta nonsense, man.

Kerr Adams wrote:I do have photos now but I am waiting to discuss things with Black Diamond before I post them in case they need to do a recall etc. If they are okay with me posting them, I will be doing so very soon.

Haha could you imagine them recalling entire product lines each time some gubbin zippers gear?

Kerr, brilliant. You played us. Now you are going to sell the photos and the rights to them to Bd. Well played.

I wouldnt show the pics myself if I was getting ready to sue BD or try and settle out of court. Then again I'd be pretty much setting up fellow climbers for an early death over my greed at that point. hmmm, money or fellow climbers...

Avi Katz wrote:Kerr- a speedy recovery. Try not to take the trolls here too seriously. This is the most active thread I've seen with the least amount of information and the most amount of speculation.

We're dangerously low on popcorn...

Tom-o Sapien wrote: We're dangerously low on popcorn...

ya... my bad. I've been cutting holes in the bottom of everyone's popcorn bags.

Also... the whole idea of suing? I thought (to the best of my knowledge) that climbing had (in general) been legally deemed an inherently dangerous sport? Like high speed jetskiing or BASEjumping. From the little I've learned about the climbing/suing industry it seems that it has become near to impossible to win in almost all cases..

Don't the small booklets sold on every piece of gear claim no responsibility for their use? I've never heard of a NASCAR racer suing FireStone because their usually sticky rubber tires didn't keep him pasted to the track...

And before everyone points fingers at the sad Tito incident, that was A: usage or a product outside its intended use and B: in Italy.

I've pulled pieces before. It's scary, especially when the ground gets involved. Buuuuuut every piece I've pulled has been the result of poor placement or other factors within my control.

As a climbing accident survivor, my heart goes out to Kerr. The speediest recovery.

I hope some real, tangible, proof/evidence/facts come out so we can stop banging our heads against this wall

Avi, were you cutting holes in popcorn bags on purpose, or were you obligated to hire your sisters kid for the job, Edward Wooden Ice Tool hands? He used to mow our lawn and before he destroyed the mower, he was great at killing moles and adding speed holes to...just about anything

Folks there will now be no pics

Now that the manufacturer is involved, no pics will be posted until a "full analysis" is done ... If ever

No manufacturer wants pics of broken equipment posted without them providing the context ...

Or else itll become like the broken SS crampon shietstorm

If the OP is interested in informing the climbing community what happened the pics would be posted ... Whether the failure were a problem with the cams or his placements

However for a legal solution .... One probably shouldnt post em up as they can be leverage

Picturs are very dangerous ... Information must be controlled !!!

;)

bearbreeder wrote: Picturs are very dangerous ... Information must be controlled !!! ;)

Sure thing Baghdad Bob!

bearbreeder wrote:...If the OP is interested in informing the climbing community what happened the pics would be posted...

This.

I wish the OP the best for a quick recovery, but his reluctance to post pics after making wild claims about defective gear is baffling.

^^ says those feeding off the thread themselves

LOL

;)

Kerr Adams wrote:I do have photos now but I am waiting to discuss things with Black Diamond before I post them in case they need to do a recall etc. If they are okay with me posting them, I will be doing so very soon.

Hey Kerr! First, the most important question: how are you feeling and how is the recovery going? I hope that you are feeling better and look forward to an update on your recovery.

Regarding your claims of defective gear, have you contacted BD? Has BD responded to you?What are your thoughts on posting up the photos? You got a lot of folks attention with your initial post here and your friend's post on reddit. I am hopeful that you will follow through and post up the photos you claim to have and provide some more details regarding the accident.

Kerr said
"I don't believe this has been brought up before but I have attempted this route previously with C4 Camalots. Same exact gear placements, just with C4 cams. Each piece was taken on and the first piece that pulled this most recent time (.4) was actually fallen on (7-8ft) and it did not pull or get damaged. Again, I am fully aware there is still room for human error here but it sure does make me think."

George Perkins said
"Up to the hand jam, the best gear is mainly #0.4 camalots, with 1 (maybe 2, if the 1st is low) #0.3s at the start. There are some places where you may be able to get super tight #0.5s, (and if I don't bring 3 #0.4-size cams I try to do that sometimes and they're usually too large for the crack). Once you reach the hand jam rest, you can place a "bomber" #0.75 just below it. For the most part, #0.4s and purple link cams are the best gear on this crack, up to the hand jam. Although gear placements are abundant and generally parallel-sided and the rock is bullet basalt, the crack is sustained, and most of the stances you're placing from are pumpy. Hanging around and triple-checking for the ideal placements is not going to help a red-point attempt. Although the crux of the route is after the hand jam rest (that crux is also best protected with a #0.4 size cam), the hardest portions up to the rest are the moves just before you reach the hand jam at approx 35'- it's most likely most people would have 1-2 #0.4s protecting them in that section. (Those are approx., I rack with cams from a few different brands.) "

ultrafloopsjake from Reddit said
"First, I'm really glad to hear the climber is doing well and will recover quickly. I've led the route, Manic Crack, a number of times. I recall the initial gear going from one .3 C4 Camalot to a .5 C4 rather quickly and I know I've only ever placed one .3 C4 on the route and quickly moved to placing a .4 C4 and then a .5 C4. Given that the expansion range for a .3 X4 is 12.4-21.2 mm while the expansion range for a .3 C4 is 13.8-23.4 mm I'm surprised to hear the climber had placed more than one .3 X4 given the size of the crack. I don't own any X4 camalots so I can't say for sure but I'm theorizing the .3 X4s were just too small for the crack. Photos and future details will help shed light on this unfortunate incident."

The is a big difference between a C4 .3 and an X4 .3. No cam stops and a smaller expansion range.
I've never climbed the route but these accounts seem to suggest that Kerr may have been in the upper range of his cams.
Even cam stops won't save a tipped out cam. The whole unit can still pull out if two lobes flip into the crack and the other two slide towards the outside of the crack. Cam stops are not to be used like stoppers [wedged], more like hooked behind 2 edges.

We desperately require photos.

Hope your recovery is going well.

"There is a big difference between a C4 .3 and an X4 .3."

I had no idea. I thought the X4's were a new design feature that offered extra flexibility in the stem (to reduce "walking"), but yet provided the same force-holding power.

From your graph (which is cool, thanks!) - It looks like the difference is slight... Although maybe it is big percentage-wise? Care to elaborate further on how much weaker the X.3 is versus the C.3?

Russ Keane wrote:"There is a big difference between a C4 .3 and an X4 .3." I had no idea. I thought the X4's were a new design feature that offered extra flexibility in the stem (to reduce "walking"), but yet provided the same force-holding power. From your graph (which is cool, thanks!) - It looks like the difference is slight... Although maybe it is big percentage-wise? Care to elaborate further on how much weaker the X.3 is versus the C.3?

It's not about weakness, it's about range.
Usable range 5% to 60%
X4.3 = .51-.69
C4.3 = .56-.76

Full range
X4.3 = .49-.82
C4.3 = .54-.91