Accident on Manic Crack in NM

Kerr ...

relevant questions once you post the photos

- what is your weight
- what is the weight of your belayer
- what rope were you using, how old/used is it, how stretchy was it still
- what belay device was used
- did you take with your waist below the piece, or was it above
- how far was your partner from the wall when you fell/took
- did your partner sit into the initial take, and the subsequent fall, or was the belay dynamic once you were in a lead fall
- what was the spacing between the pieces
- is the crack straight up or does it wander
- did you extend the pieces
- were the placements of the cams in the direction of the pull
- did you step on any of the cams, or did the slings catch as you climbed by
- what type of rock is the crack and how solid is it

best wishes

as to small cams ... ive said it before and ill say it again ... theres always a real chance theyll pull, even from seemingly "good" placements ... never trust a small cam if you can help it, place em, but dont trust em ... of course for several to pull something went really wrong one way or another

its never a bad idea to get in a nut every now and then .. especially if youre projecting the climb and can work out the gear before hand

possible 1st 1 or 2 rotated and zippered from below when the rope came taught...

Kerr good luck in your recovery. Thank you for braving the flames to give the climbing community information you felt was important.

bearbreeder wrote:Kerr ... relevant questions once you post the photos - what is your weight - what is the weight of your belayer - what rope were you using, how old/used is it, how stretchy was it still - what belay device was used - did you take with your waist below the piece, or was it above - how far was your partner from the wall when you fell/took - did your partner sit into the initial take, and the subsequent fall, or was the belay dynamic once you were in a lead fall - what was the spacing between the pieces - is the crack straight up or does it wander - did you extend the pieces - were the placements of the cams in the direction of the pull - did you step on any of the cams, or did the slings catch as you climbed by - what type of rock is the crack and how solid is it best wishes as to small cams ... ive said it before and ill say it again ... theres always a real chance theyll pull, even from seemingly "good" placements ... never trust a small cam if you can help it, place em, but dont trust em ... of course for several to pull something went really wrong one way or another its never a bad idea to get in a nut every now and then .. especially if youre projecting the climb and can work out the gear before hand

Would be great to increase the amount of actual data from the actual event in this largely vapor-containing thread. To the above very sensible questions I would add
-did you give the cam a hard tug to set it after you placed it? (and yes, I do know that cams can move after they are placed well)

Kerr- a speedy recovery. Try not to take the trolls here too seriously.

This is the most active thread I've seen with the least amount of information and the most amount of speculation.

Optimistic wrote: -did you give the cam a hard tug to set it after you placed it?

Setting a cam by a hard tug. That's a good one. Yes there can be value to pull on it and wiggle it and move the sling side to side to see how it will behave. But a hard tug to set it?

Good luck on your recovery. I just wanted to tell you I broke two vertebrae in my neck and two in my back. My recovery took about eight weeks. I'm back to normal even after back surgery. Think positive and stay active. You'll come out just fine..

I had a similar situation happen to a friend in IC. While working Less Than Zero he called for a take with 1.5 feet of rope above a 0 power cam. When he went to sit on it the cam axle snapped and sent him sailing down onto the .75 below. We have pictures of the cam placement just before it broke. The placement was deep and in a 'perfect' angle. While it was random and not what you want to see with cams, it does happen. Not every single piece can be fully tested and their are random situation where everything somehow goes wrong. Climbing is not entirely safe, there is no such thing as a perfect placement, and things break. Just do what you can to mitigate the chances of everything failing at once.

PS. The day before I refused to use that power can on the same route as I didn't like the feel of it's action. It was heavily used and was somewhat sticky. I took a very big fall on a master cam placed on the same spot and was fine.

Some questions I'd add:
- I'm not clear on the sequence. You mention taking on the lower two, and falling 7-8 feet on the top. Was this all part of the same attempt, or different occasions? If it was all the same attempt, did you reset / check the cams after there initial take/fall?
- Where did you get the cams? Far-fetched, but I recall there being some counterfeit PETZL gear out before so there may be a possibility of a forgery...
- Have you been in contact with BD?

As others (and I) have said, get better, that sucks.

I just want to clarify that no one is really doubting your claim of what the events were. You took, the gear popped, and you ripped another 2 pieces on the way down. No reason not to believe that, totally plausible.

However, I, and many others here, am strongly doubting your analysis and attribution of fault (i.e. the claim that the gear failed/was defective). Either way, I hope you post some high-res pics of the pieces, which should help figure out the whole story. Hoping you heal up and get back to the rock soon.

Greg D wrote: Setting a cam by a hard tug. That's a good one. Yes there can be value to pull on it and wiggle it and move the sling side to side to see how it will behave. But a hard tug to set it?

You're right, that was imprecise. What I meant but didn't express correctly was that I've often found that the cam will skate a little when you tug on it, and then find a nice home for each lobe in some irregularities in the rock.

Also, since these are new, small cams: a buddy of mine (with 10-15 years of experience at the time, leads trad up to 10 c/d, climbed RNWF of HD, etc) got a nasty shock the first time he used a red C3 (to replace his Aliens). He placed the cam, liked how it looked, seemed totally truck...and then pulled it straight out of the rock under mild pressure, it just slipped. I dunno if that was something to do with a different cam angle or just a fluke with some polished rock, but he never liked C3's after that. (I think they work fine, fwiw.) Point being, sometimes cams do funny things, and a little tug can give you surprising info sometimes.

ive had micro cams in visibly "good" placements that pulled out with a good tug ...

usually they were in a perfectly parallel crack with very polished sides ... and that was in granite

we wont even talk about limestone ...

;)

KevinCO wrote:Also, a BD team should get involved and interview you, inspect the cams, measure the crack, test the rock, etc.

LOL are you for real?

^ +1

I have to admit my first reaction was that the placements were bad but if I understand the facts correctly I can't see how that could realistically have been the cause.

The .4 X4 that he hung on has a double axle -- that means that it can't "umbrella" like aliens, etc right? But he stated that the lobes sheared which pretty much means that in fact it MUST have "umbrella'd" or something along those lines right? How else could the lobes get broken like that?

I mean lets assume the placement was absolute garbage, the cam was totally tipped out, cam lobes were hanging on by a tiny crystal, it walked, whatever. He calls for a take, maybe the cam pulls and he breaks the single axle .3s below. But the cam didn't just pull -- it broke. Which shouldn't be possible on a double axle cam even on the most shit placement ever, right?

I'm probably missing something here which I'm sure I will be informed of shortly, but in any case glad to hear you're walking around and hope you make a speedy recovery!

The only thing missing are pictures showing the damage to the cams. One would think that would be included in a post making wild claims against a reputable company.

Damn.....any chance you were starring in Vertical Limit 2?

I am also very curious to see pictures. Heal swiftly.

Meme Guy wrote:The only thing missing are pictures showing the damage to the cams. One would think that would be included in a post making wild claims against a reputable company.

3 pages of internet armchair speculation and no pics go figure.

I still stand by my belief that almost everything made in China is inferior.

This dude's going to end up with a lawyer, who will never allow him to post the pics all over the internet chat board.

Russ Keane wrote:This dude's going to end up with a lawyer, who will never allow him to post the pics all over the internet chat board.

That very well might happen.