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WTF...self belaying with a grigri 2?!!

The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460
Mike wrote:Plenty of good info above. Also please use a quick-link instead of a carabiner to attach the grigri in case of side-loading during a fall.
It would be better to use a locking carabiner like the BD Gridlock or DMM Belay Master that's designed to prevent cross loading. The average quick link has a working load strength of 880 lbs, which is roughly equivalent to the 4 Kn rating of a cross loaded biner
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: It would be better to use a locking carabiner like the BD Gridlock or DMM Belay Master that's designed to prevent cross loading. The average quick link has a working load strength of 880 lbs, which is roughly equivalent to the 4 Kn rating of a cross loaded biner
Don't confuse Safe Working Load with what we use in climbing which is Ultimate Load.
The Blueprint Part Dank · · FEMA Region VIII · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 460
rocknice2 wrote: Don't confuse Safe Working Load with what we use in climbing which is Ultimate Load.
True that, the Ultimate Load is about double that, but it's simpler and safer to use a locking carabiner with something to prevent cross loading
Mike · · Phoenix · Joined May 2006 · Points: 2,615

Actually the working load limit (WLL) is generally a safety factor of 1-5 or 1-10. While your suggestion for a Gridlock-type carabiner is a good one, a quick-link (made of steel) is definitely stronger. That 400 lb WLL is probably a 4000 lb breaking strength.

Also it is no more complicated to use a quicklink than a screwgate carabiner, and IMHO auto-locking carabiners are much worse for the activity in question as the locking mechanisms tend to be much bulkier & thus easier to get caught on the grigri & side-loaded. My friend had that happen & ended up blowing out the gate & cratering.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: It would be better to use a locking carabiner like the BD Gridlock or DMM Belay Master that's designed to prevent cross loading. The average quick link has a working load strength of 880 lbs, which is roughly equivalent to the 4 Kn rating of a cross loaded biner
use a belay master with a the grigri/ascender placed on the narrow side ... theres no way for it to come out

if that biner is the sole thing keeping you alive (are you just tying backup knots or short clipping them?) ... it simply cant break or come loose

when you climb that locker at your waist will be jiggling all over the place ... theres a reason why many if not most gyms require two clip ins for autobelays

the magnetron gridlock might work, but there isnt enough history on whether one of those can actually come loose in such a configuration

the other unknown is that if your grigri/ascender fails ... you are taking a possibly large fall on a knotted rope ... petzl states this can damage the ascender, can it damage a grigri? who knows ... its possible the rope itself might see some damage

heres a sobering story of the dangers of self belaying without using any backups ... whether you use an ascender, grigri, etc ...

devices can be made to fail ...


On April 14 I was climbing Hominey (5.8) on the Vittles Wall, a 25-foot crag near Hammond Pond. I’ve been climbing for five years, and although I have easily completed routes rated more difficult than this, I have struggled and fallen repeatedly on the crux bulge at the top of Hominey. Although I was without a partner, I had a few free hours that morning and was in the area, so I decided to take another shot at Hominey on self-belay. I was using a Petzl Basic on a fixed line. The Petzl Basic documentation warns that the cam that locks on the rope can be jammed by foreign material and fail to close. Petzl recommends tying backup knots on a redundant line. Having repeatedly fallen on my Basic over the previous year without mishap, I neglected to tie backup knots. On other occasions I had felt that spending time and energy tying these knots weakened me just as I needed strength for hard moves. This time I easily reached the crux but, as usual, struggled to get over it. Twice, I decided to downclimb to a rest just below the bulge. Both times I had to open the cam on the Basic to allow the rope to pass through the device. On the third attempt, I popped off my holds and heard the rope whip through the device without any resistance. I had enough time during the fall to realize that, although it was unlikely that I would die, this would be a serious accident.

I landed on my left foot. The impact felt incredibly violent, and I could tell immediately that I had broken my left tibial plateau badly. I stood on my right leg to disconnect myself from the rope, and lay down to call 911. I had taken a wilderness first-aid course two years ago, and realized that blood circulation was important for the survival of my leg, so I straightened it into a position of function. The Vittles Wall is a bit off the beaten path, so I was on the phone for 45 minutes while the Newton firefighters looked for me. Eventually the 911 dispatcher suggested I yell to help them locate me. Another climber heard me yell and led the firefighters in my direction. The Newton firefighters did an incredible job carrying me out on a board. I spent the next 52 days in Beth Israel Hospital in Boston. I’ve had 13 surgeries, two metal plates, too many screws to count, and a post-op infection for nearly a year. I might need knee replacement surgery.

Analysis

I’m not sure why the cam did not close. It’s possible that the tip of my belt managed to get into it and hold it open. It’s also possible that after the second downclimb I left it locked in the open position, which is possible with the Basic.

(Source: Streph Treadway, 44.) (Editor’s note: She mentioned not tying backup knots, but did not indicate whether they would have prevented grounding out. They may well have. Also of note is a recurring theme: the value of having taken a wilderness first-aid course. )


publications.americanalpine…
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

More like 5x but since some/most of these manufactures don't use sigma3 calculate 4x
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worki…

Tighe Blackadar · · Bridgton ME · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 141

I recently built a cabin with a steep pitched roof, and used my gri gri 2 for the entire project, it wasn't until I was done that I realized I was basically TR soloing the whole time. I felt completely safe and there was only one time where the lever did in fact get pulled (I quickly dropped my tools and corrected the issue).It is an easy situation to avoid with caution. I used a catastrophe knot at all times, and this season, I think I will look into another device and get into TR soloing a bit more!

Braden Downey · · Bishop, CA · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 110

Self belays are always more dicey than a real belay. Having that said, I've used a grigri for belaying myself on lead in order to move faster up big climbs while rope soloing or short-fixing. Only after considering extensively how using a grigri for this application could cause failure, the consequences if it were to fail, the probability of it failing, and after consulting a professional alpinist who's particularly knowledgeable on this subject, .. only then did I accept the risk in order reward myself the advantages of moving faster on climbs that are special to me. The frequency I tie backup knots depends entirely on the terrain: Sometimes I feel the need to tie backup knots frequently while other times my only backup knot is my tie in point.

I haven't really looked into devices TR soloing, but I would first look into the Ushba for that application. Regardless what device you're using, be sure to acknowledge the fact that if you aren't tying backup knots to your belay loop, you are betting your life on the device.

Braden Downey · · Bishop, CA · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 110
Mike wrote:Actually the working load limit (WLL) is generally a safety factor of 1-5 or 1-10. While your suggestion for a Gridlock-type carabiner is a good one, a quick-link (made of steel) is definitely stronger. That 400 lb WLL is probably a 4000 lb breaking strength. Also it is no more complicated to use a quicklink than a screwgate carabiner, and IMHO auto-locking carabiners are much worse for the activity in question as the locking mechanisms tend to be much bulkier & thus easier to get caught on the grigri & side-loaded. My friend had that happen & ended up blowing out the gate & cratering.
Really? Was this documented? Sorry to doubt you but any critical thinker is into fact checking. Was this in Accidents in North American Mountaineering by any chance. If you're not bsing me, sorry about your friend. Is he ok?
Mike · · Phoenix · Joined May 2006 · Points: 2,615
dirtbag wrote: Really? Was this documented? Sorry to doubt you but any critical thinker is into fact checking. Was this in Accidents in North American Mountaineering by any chance. If you're not bsing me, sorry about your friend. Is he ok?
Do you think I was making this up? IDK if it was documented in ANAM or not (if not then it didn't happen???) but that is how it went down. He took a short-ish fall, at which time the carabiner shifted & the auto-lock got caught on the edge of the grigri hole, and the gate blew open. He was pretty messed up, but is mostly recovered now. He isn't on MP.com much anymore as he lives abroad, but if you are legitimately interested LMK & I can put you in contact with him & you can get the info straight from the source.
Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,060
Brent Larsen wrote:STOP BELAYING YOURSELF WITH A GRIGRI! There is no excuse to go climbing without a partner.
Top roping a fixed line with a gri-gri is super safe on the scale of sketchy things to do climbing, unless you manage to get the rope over an edge and fall a bunch.

Lead soloing is less safe no matter what, but I lead solo belay with a gri-gri (original) now and then. Attached with a big steel quicklink with a quick wrap of climbing tape around the quicklink to keep it from being able to turn sideways. I don't lead solo enough to mess around with the better, pricier setups. Yes it's a pain, and you risk bigger falls since you have to pay out lots of slack.

YOU try convincing partners to belay you for hours worth of hand drilling on lead…particularly when you don't even know the day you might get free until 24-48 hours ahead of time!

Doesn't matter what system you use for lead solo belaying, it's super scary to look at any significant fall particularly in the mandatory-free-climbing-off-of-aid-placement that so often happens while establishing new routes ground-up. Typically there's no one else nearby either. Yes, use a backup knot, but with the big loop of slack often required…don't fall.
Stiles · · the Mountains · Joined May 2003 · Points: 845

The traxion haul devices have sharp teeth to grip the rope. Why is it better to fall onto a toothed can than a smooth one (grigri)? Is sheath damage not a concern? Taking a fall onto teeth seems like a good way to thrash a rope.

Have extensive experience grigri soloing on aid, it self feeds pretty well if you don't move quick and jerky. Have taken many solo lead falls (biggest only 25ft) on a grigri with no problems. I much prefer soloing on a grigri than a haul device with many sharp needle teeth. Also you can lower off or re-ascend safely and easily without any of kind of changeover. And it is not necessary to attach to a chest harness to keep it upright,it'll catch a fall no matter what, unless the lever gets held down somehow. Chopping the lever short is the most modification most folks do. A grigri seems the most straight-forward, cheapest, versatile and safe solo device to use. You cannot lower off a Silent Partner (which is huge and heavy) and the Soloist and Solo Aid only catch upright falls,and you can't lower off of them, either.

Eldo Love · · Mancos,CO · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 125

I use a different kind of device to rope solo. Grigri 2 works very well though. I havent actually heard of anyone dieing rope soloing. However im sure someone can prove me wrong.

I feel more confident in my soloing device than I do a human belay partner. It doesnt smoke, text, or talk about the 5.13 it put up in China.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Stiles wrote:The traxion haul devices have sharp teeth to grip the rope. Why is it better to fall onto a toothed can than a smooth one (grigri)? Is sheath damage not a concern? Taking a fall onto teeth seems like a good way to thrash a rope. Have extensive experience grigri soloing on aid, it self feeds pretty well if you don't like quick and jerky. Have taken many solo lead falls (biggest only 25ft) on a grigri with no problems. I much prefer soloing on a grigri than a haul device with many sharp needle teeth. Also you can lower off or re-ascend safely and easily without any of kind of changeover.
Nobody solo-leads with a toothed device. They are great for solo-TR.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

two things about ropes ...

if you use static ropes for TR soloing, then if the ascender/grigri fails and take a substantial fall on a knot ... things wont feel that good obviously ... so use a dynamic line

also, many of use use older ropes for TR soloing, they should still be stretchy enough, but the sheath is usually a bit fuzzy by this time ... so if you use a toothed device its not on a new pristine rope ...

you can easily mitigate most of the risk out of TR soloing by

- using two independent lines ... simply fold the rope in half on climbs 30m or less

- using a separate device on each line ... theres a good chance youll get a microtraxion or some other ascender for other uses anyways

- if using a single device, simply pre-tie knots on the other line and put biner/draws in them ... then clip them to a girth hitch short knotted sling as you climb up ... on lead youll have to place gear or clip bolts at the same spots anyways

- if using a single rope, place one device on the belay loop, another on a bandolier parisian which is also connected to the harness ... and make sure you pad the edges and theres no swing potential for the rope to rub sideways over the edge ... if there is use a second line or built a redundant anchor over the edge

- always carry a sling or two and a few biners in case you need to self rescue ... and know how to

- carry a cell phone on you ... just in case

the total setup cost is around 70-150$ assuming you have the ropes

everybody rope solos in squamish ... theres hundreds of climbs that have top access here ...

hell even the guiding services here offer a TR solo course

squamishrockguides.com/solo…

in the off season you can "multipitch" rope solo yr way from the top to the bottom ... just dont do it on popular routes, but theres tons that dont see much traffic

two weeks ago in squamish ... rope soloing ...

malamute, slap and tickle 10-

malamute above starr ledge

;)

Braden Downey · · Bishop, CA · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 110
Mike wrote: Do you think I was making this up? IDK if it was documented in ANAM or not (if not then it didn't happen???) but that is how it went down. He took a short-ish fall, at which time the carabiner shifted & the auto-lock got caught on the edge of the grigri hole, and the gate blew open. He was pretty messed up, but is mostly recovered now. He isn't on MP.com much anymore as he lives abroad, but if you are legitimately interested LMK & I can put you in contact with him & you can get the info straight from the source.
Relax, Mike. It's nothin personal lol. I'm sure you know people say all kinds of crap on the internet. It's a good idea to glean info from credible sources whenever possible.

Actually, I'm surprised that in 10 years of climbing I've never heard of a properly used auto locker braking like that. Feel free to put your buddy in touch with me.
Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

I'll toprope on a grigri on easy stuff where I can pull rope through easily. Tie in a good knot about 10 ft up as a slippage backup so I won't bottom out. Never has happened yet. Not convenient, but nice for scoping out a route, cleaning rock, just lazy day climbing when nobody is around to belay you. Be very skilled, and know how to self rescue, self evacuate yourself from the mess if it goes wrong.

farley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0

Self belaying with Grigri has worked well for me and i feel within the safety zone,-- i.e. when it comes to the accepted risks of climbing in general. I always was top roping. To lead and belay for self is a higher risk than i am willing to take. Self belaying on a TR is simple and a alternative if partners aren't around.

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

I did this once, for an amazing out-of-the-way climb in the wilderness for which I had no partner. I felt good about it. I took a slight fall or two, and things held. I was entirely in control and never nervous. If you know your device, stay within your limits, keep things simple and cool, you can definitely top-rope by yourself with the gri.

Jonathan Dull · · Boone, NC · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 415

Dan Osman jumped off leaning tower and took a 1200' whipper on a Grigri. I think they'll be alright. Tie backup knots.

Homage to the late Dan Osman; dude looks like he had some fun while here.

youtube.com/watch?v=SSfPXi9…

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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