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Rope hooking as a safety technique

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Dan Beausoleil wrote:Looking for comments on the safety/reliability of 'rope hooking' while leading. Recently started using it. The technique of pulling up a lead rope and hooking it over the pinky rest of a tool placed up high in order to get some rest and/or as a quick piece of 'pro'. Assuming one has an excellent stick w/the tool being used. I've aggressively tested it several dozen times in different ice conditions - not one failure. I already know, "Yer gonna die!!" So, accepting that inevitability, is this a relatively reliable safe technique or, is it russian roulette that will surely, eventually have a bad ending?
Warbonnet:

"Good stuff (the good, the bad and the screamer). I'm with Dan.....placed correctly, it takes a lot to fail. It is designed to add a bit of assurance (not placebo-type but if that helps, that's fine) should you slip (not take a screamer) and your crampons can actually skate out a bit & the rope will still hold. That's scary but provides a level of comfort that you're doing something right".

"The idea is to NOT weight the rope purposefully and this requires the active participation of the belayer (even if the belayer can't see the leader). The Petzl site makes the first example look like the climber has fallen (which he apparently has) and the weight is both weighted and he/she is falling backwards. Frankly, I'd rather take the second "NO" alternative".

_____________
Warbonnet:

"It still baffles me that there are those recommending clipping a 'biner (from the harness no less) to the spike. Remember, if you clip it with say your right hand, you will tend to unclip it with the right. This means you have to "cross over", a hugely imbalancing movement. Hang your tool from something (a glass chandelier so it looks like ice) and try clipping/unclipping with the same hand. You will be "cross un-clipping"; has the potential to put you off balance and not just your upper body but your crampons as well. (If you're good at it, you can unclip with the left hand (assuming you are placing a screw to the left). It's tempting to clip a tether (NOT a leash) to your tool, however, study the photos below and you'll see that you might end up being a piece of mamacre when it's done."

IF you decide to clip 'biners to your harness for the sole purpose of rope flicking on either side, I recommend they be dedicated for such and that they are located NOT in the center of the harness (which will rotate you if you fall), rather at (on left side) 10:00 pm and 2:00 pm (right side). You get the idea.....reduce body & system rotation.

"I'll post two pics (some of you have seen one of them) properly using the "rope flick" method. It's Ian Parnell of, well, Ian Parnell fame. While he makes it look easy and BALANCED, it is. The operative words are balance and a cool head.

Some of you (not all -- you've figured it out) are proposing methods that will lever the tool either WHILE you are placing pro (like a quick draw) into the hole, OR, removing it once you have placed a screw. I think it extremely important to think about alignment and balance of the entire system. Study Ian's positioning....very important. On the steeper stuff, his arm is straight & I'd venture to say that IF he slipped off (which he doesn't), he's prepared for that. Also notice how far apart his ice tools are. Also note (in both photos) how much rope he has out).

NOTICE ALSO IN BOTH PHOTOS, HE IS PLACING THE SCREW TO THE OUTSIDE OF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. THIS IS CRUCIAL.

Kelly's (as super climber) photos show both tools placed right to each other. This is for the viewer of photograph, not for practical application of the rope flick method. Nothing could be worse than placing tools so closely; a slight slip would end in a flying lesson.

I also warn again "taking a rest" on this system (that being a 'rope flick' system). At a minimum, you are putting the pick under pressure of an unknown nature (side to side, up and down, torqued angle). This system is supposed to catch a mostly downward fall. (Sure, Ian is showing how it's done on a low angle slope, however, notice his absolutely perfect posture on the 5+/6 (the second photo).

Remember, the "rope flick" is for the climber whose intent is to keep moving, not hang out. If you want to hang out, place a screw or two and do just that. We've all done that and I don't know a climber who hasn't. After your "rope flick" has provided some margin of "glad that's over" stuff, make sure you have a second screw in and .....hang out then. You will have deserved it.

Regardless of how you use this, you need the attention of the belayer (if they can hear/see you or, in the best of worlds, know you well). If I'm using the "flick" to the right, I will yell down "hook on right" or "hook on left". ['FLICK on right" might be, in the noise of it all, misconstrued as something else]. I like to think I rarely use rope flicks however, I've used them on 5 & 6's and glad someone figured it out before I had to. I think it's important for the belayer to know which side you've placing the screw in a rope flick situation so they can anticipate that which cannot be anticipated.

Even and especially if you are hooking your harness in the middle, say with a Fifi (which I like, BTW, but only as a back-up), if it pops, the belayer (depending on how close he/she is) they'll have no idea what happened UNLESS you yelled down "hook in middle". I do it exactly as Ian shows it. Looks subtle and it is but think of the "pull" or "tug" the system might cause if the leader slips......and all things being equal, the leader will only slip to the SIDE, not down (assuming all is set up fine).

ALSO, you need the belayer to beware they don't put unnecessary tension on the system (the leader & the belayer should discuss that this system may be used, thus, attention is in order. The rope flick is NOT designed to be rested on (however, as Dan points out above, they can be so solid that it's tempting to rest.....(which I've been known to do while I've bawled my eyes out I was so scared.)

I, like many of you, have seen plenty of super expert climbers and all I know have done "the flick" at one time or another. I'm not ashamed to use it; I just don't want to fall. If you climb in Europe, Scotland, Quebec, (on and on) you will see this used all the time. Probably not used enough. Practice.

You also need to take care in setting up this rope flick (takes less than 30 seconds, if that - more like 15) such that if anything pops (your tool(s), Fifi, ice screw (if you've already placed one precisely in front of your teeth, or even slack rope) that it doesn't smack you in the face. Again, look at Ian's second photo......very, very relaxed & he knows exactly what he is doing. The key: relaxation; he barely knows it's there. He's looked up at the route, knows how he feels and has "pre-placed it" w/o thinking about it.

csproul says:

"I think what you fail to emphasize is that this is considered an absolute last resort to most ice climbers. It might be a good technique to know and practice under controlled conditions, but if it comes to this, you are leading climbs that are too hard for you and you have already f'ed up. Sure it's good to know and better than falling, but I don't consider it a viable technique for regular use".

Warbonnet:

I totally disagree with the statement that this is the last resort to most ice climbers. The "last resort" for most ice climbers is to avoid climbs above their ability, however, I can't agree more with the subject that Dan Beausoleil brings up initially. He and others suggest you go out & practice BEFORE you find yourself on a 3-4 & sketched. Then is not the time to be asking yourself "Now what WAS it that Ian Parnell was doing"? Practice it on WI 2 or steeper (out of the line of fire). Place your tool into the ice at different depths & diff ice types if possible. (But I agree with you csproul: not something you want to rely on, however, climbers BETTER have practiced this, otherwise, they ARE screwed if they can't climb down. And we can't just let go and jump into the water cuz it's....frozen.

But don't fake yourself out. If it's too flat and you place your tool and weight the spike, you will lever the tool out at the pick and, among other things (weaken your pick) but the handle will lever too far out.....you'll think, "cool", now I can walk over and weight it with another rope and pull." Not cool. As Dan correctly says, do it on angled ice.

I also have spoken with Bill Belcourt (BD) at length re: tethers. NO WEIGHT, ZERO, NONE. They are very concerned about this (as is Cassin). If you are relying on tethers in any way shape or form that takes weight for the "rope flick" system, let me know we'll start using them. They are simply bungy cords in case you drop your tool, end of story.

Re: not being able to put anything (a biner, no less...yikes) on a spike-less tool, NOW we are talking about a legitimate problem. My 7+ levatator friends have, in each case & various tools, taken the bottom grip apart and put X thickness of tied cord (looped) on the bottom (say, 1" or so), wrenched it backed together (doesn't alter or mar anything) and that's done the trick; they can clip anything into the corded loop.

Brad in the Bay says:

"Clipping the tool directly to the harness introduces a new safety measure (of whatever quality) and creates some redundancy."

Warbonnet response:

If you markedly move the alignment of your body forward, you have likely changed the physics of the system and made it more difficult to place a screw and/or retrieve your tools. I know what you are saying....I agree....but don't move too far into the ice. (See Parnell photos). Also, if you pop a tool and it's close to your face, you'll get whacked & it's a guaranteed fall.

Your second sentence reads: "While hooking the rope over the tool introduces a new (sketchy?) variable to the existing system possibly weakening the system."

Warbonnet response:

First, you are NOT hooking the rope over the tool. Ixnay. And it does not weaken the system, quite the opposite. (I think you mean over the pinky spikey end, not over the tool, correct? If anyone does that, they are courting disaster.....most pick tools are rather sharp on top).

____________________

Two notes on Parnell's position:

1. Notice he is placing the screws OUTSIDE "the system". Very important not to be placing screws directly in front of you (or within the ropes) if, for example, you are using a Fifi.

2. Parnell is a world class climber. Notice in the first pic, he has perfect feet positioning (altho he may be standing on the rope!!!!!), i.e., his heels are dropped down, not up, i.e., he is not getting his calves pumped out. This is one (major) reason he looks so cool.....cuz he is....when he's ready to move up, he has rested calves & thighs, ready to cruise. Can't tell in the second pic but I'm sure he has he correct heel drop, resting his legs.

____________________

All of this DOES crack me up........IT'S ALL AID CLIMBING ANYWAY!!!! Where's my ski lift?

Ian Parnell's photos again (with a 2nd not included in other strings):

Ian Parnell on low angle ice showing how to set up a "rope flick"

Second photo

On the very steep. Perfectly placed & locked off right arm, ready to take the full weight should his feet blow. This is beautiful positioning.

Ian Parnell on the steep. Perfect position for his rope flick. Extended right arm, drilling the screw to the OUTSIDE of his left rope system.
DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100

If you've got two hammers, pound that sucker in and it's not going anywhere.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
DannyUncanny wrote:If you've got two hammers, pound that sucker in and it's not going anywhere.
Danny, excellent point. As many know, many leashless tools do not come with stock hammers but if you have the option, take them along with you. They not only are useful for pins (testing them to listen for that magic "ring", meaning they are probably (?), placing pins or hammering in hexes but also good but also for 'swing weight' (that's an individual thing). I use fiberglass Cobras with the LARGE hammer on them (each) both because the 'swing weight' feels better but during mixed climbing or setting bolts or pins; there are few options.

If you don't have the hammers Danny is talking about, you will have to use the top head of the other a tool to do it. Does anyone else have a suggestion?

Another reminder (as much to myself) is that you have gloves on. That can make weaseling around with Fifi's, draws fixed here and there, actually flipping the rope, etc. a cumbersome process. Don't let it be....hence the practice.

I am NOT a monk but if there ever was a time to be one is when you need a 30 second (max) rope flick in. Don't freak out in the face of freakdom, DO NOT expect that you are going for flying lessons. I don't wait until I'm pumped out to do it......I gauge it to where I might be....probably going to be near pumped out to need one but w/the strength to pull it off. Plan accordingly, be a smooth operator, make that rope flick (and what looks like complicated geometry really isn't. From what many are saying in this string, it sounds like they would use it to haul a case of cool Bud up. Others

ONE MORE IMPORTANT THING THAT WAS NOT DISCUSSED RE: WHAT TO DO IF CLIMBING WITH TWO ROPES? SOME DISAGREE WITH THIS BUT I WOULD ONLY USE ONE (THE HIGHEST AND/OR THE BEST PR0 BELOW). I USUALLY CLIMB WITH A SINGLE THICK ROPE (LESS ROPE DRAG CRAP BUT MORE RAPPELS....I KNOW) BUT WHEN I NEED 2 ROPES (RAPPEL MOSTLY & LESS DRAG), I FLICK THE ONE WITH THE BEST PRO BELOW.

DANNY STARTED THE DAY WITH GREAT ADVICE - SLAM THE HEAD IN WITH ANOTHER HAMMER (BUT DON'T LET THE TOOL SHAFT MOVE TOO FAR FROM ICE. IDEALY, YOU WANT THE SHAFT TO BE MARRIED TO THE ICE. IT'S EASIER TO GET YOUR ROPE "UNDER" THE OTHER TOOL.

WATCH THAT YOU DON'T KICK YOUR CRAMPONS INTO THE ROPES BELOW (AS IAN MIGHT BE DOING); ONE OF MY FAVORITE $300 USD HABITS. IF THAT HAPPENS, THERE ARE A NUMER OF KNOTS THAT CAN BE TIED QUICKLY TO GET OUT OF A JAM. THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED 'FLAT" KNOTS AND IF SO, THEY HAVE A CHANGE TO GET STUCK INTO CRACKS .
paintrain · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 75

I would say that just because someone wrote an instructional book with pictures of it in use, doesn't make it a valid or safe technique. Its a desperation maneuver. If you are using it on low angle ice, you best be working on your basic skills rather than practicing questionable "safety" backups.

1. Not recommended by one of the most safety conscious companies in the industry.
2. Most pinky rests are not designed for much load. If your feet blow - good luck + penalty slack!
3. There is a hole for clipping on most tools that is full strength. If you are using this technique often, think about making it safer by using it or get an old BD specter
4. It adds complexity to communicating with your belayer which never seem to improve safety.

My 2 cents.
Don't rely on it for frequent use. If you are getting over pumped, get in a screw and rest on it. If you aren't in a position to improve your technique or get fit enough to use leashless tools proficiently on the grades you want to climb, get some leashes - they work on "leashless" tools as well.

Pt

iceman777 · · Colorado Springs · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 60

Well here's my take

What's wrong good footwork ? And picking your stances for placing a screw? There . Done!

Idk how steep the ice is , good footwork along with tracking, monkey hang or whatever you want to call it is the key to safely climbing frozen water!

Why do most ice climbers feel they need an aid while placing screws?
BECAUSE THEY FEEL THERE FEET ARE GOING TO BLOW AT ANY NOMENT!

DUH!!!!!!!!!!

Instead of wasting energy practicing stupid crap while on tr spend that time getting your footwork dialed to the max , because as soon as you do that your going to discover you
No longer-
1) death grip your tools or have any fear of dropping one , no more barfies.
2) need any form of aid to place a screw
3) are having more fun.

And for Christi's sake if your on TR learn just how little you need to place that tool to climb securely! Again it's all in your footwork!

Way back when I started ice climbing again I used a fifi attached to my right tool , thankfully I had a great partner who also happens to be a master ice climber show me why I didn't need that fifi hook ! Footwork !

Rob Cotter · · Silverthorne, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 240

It is most definitely not "all aid climbing anyway", anyone who espouses this philosophy is clueless regarding the ethics & conduct of modern ice & mixed climbing involving leash-less technique. If anything ice and mixed now approximates the freedom and dynamism of rock- climbing more than ever owing to a reliance on hand strength to actually hold on to the tools while you are climbing and placing gear...

THIS is how it's done, no leashes tethers fifis rope looped over the pinky rest or other baloney just strength poise and presence of mind.

vimeo.com/13582765 Ines Papert leading on ice...

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

If not for the chicks, then it's to see this

because fuck you, that's why

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

I would say that just because someone wrote an instructional book with pictures of it in use, doesn't make it a valid or safe technique.

Warbonnet: I missed your point. I don't know how many "how to" climbing books are out there......hundreds?

Its a desperation maneuver.

Warbonnet: It is absolutely NOT a desperation move. If a "desperation" move, in these circumstances (as per the photo), Parnell would have put a draw on his harness & attached it to a screw. It's a "what if" move; it isn't even AO (unless he takes tension on it). Technically, he is still free climbing & he's good enough (as are many) to climb right past you & barely noticed he flicked his rope.

If you are using it on low angle ice, you best be working on your basic skills rather than practicing questionable "safety" backups.

Warbonnet: One best be practicing all the basic skills on lower angle ice than on the steep. (In fact, at very low angle ice, this is a hard move to do but you won't be using it then anyway).

1. Not recommended by one of the most safety conscious companies in the industry.

Warbonnet: No doubt you are referring to Petzl, clearly one of best companies in the industry. So are others. I didn't like Petzl's cartoon because it makes it look like the climber is falling too far backwards (the angle is too much) but that's just my take on it.

I like Petzl's cartoons; usually clearly explained and shown. Nevertheless, you don't need to refer to them as "one of the best companies in the industry [which they are...I agree with you]" because from a risk warning viewpoint, they all adhere to what legal types call the "inherent risk clause".

(Started in the ski industry yrs ago due to a long, very tragic skier death. Look at manuals, guide books, climbing equipment, kid bicycles, etc.; they all have some sort of "kill yourself at your own risk" language).

As long as the consumer was warned in writing (whether or not it's on the product), it reduces the chances of a plaintiff prevailing in a "failure to warn" lawsuit. Just because Petzl shows a guy launching backward in a fall does not solely meet the standard of "inherent risk clause"; their catalogue, to its credit, shows a number of such cases, even when equipment is abused but Petzl can't cover all risks and it's clause says so (look under "Warranty").

While I'm on my rant about this (I'm a big time wear-your-helmet person), note the following: only ONE outdoor equipment company refuses to accept photographs from within the company or third party photographers wherein the climber is NOT wearing a helmet. And that would be....tick, tick, tick. -- wrong, it is not Petzl......http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/carabiners-0 (it's Edelrid). (See Aug 2013 OP-Ed Climbing Magazine re: "Why Are People Not Wearing Helmets?)

2. Most pinky rests are not designed for much load. If your feet blow - good luck + penalty slack!

Warbonnet: Paintrain, a rope flick is NOT designed nor intended for a specified "load". (Even so, how many commenters said they experimented with it and even offered the "pound in the tool" advice. Unless I missed something (very likely), I did not read about anyone's rope flick failure.

3. There is a hole for clipping on most tools that is full strength. If you are using this technique often, think about making it safer by using it or get an old BD specter

Warbonnet: This technique is not used "often", at least in my experience; even so, big deal. I've belabored this above (apologies); by the time you unclip a 'binder a fiddle around with getting it thru the hole, a number of rope flicks could have been done and safer. Remember, if you clip something to your harness and thru the spike end of the hold, you stand to move the tool (however, I take the above advice of setting it hard or beating on it if that would make you feel better). THEN, you have to do the reverse; remove the 'biner. Which technique would you bet on as being faster....and safer?

Re: "Get an old BD Specter"? Missed that one completely. (If you mean drive one of those into the ice thinking you are now "protected", well, I won't editorialize other than to say that under particular situations and it's NOT to protect oneself on ice, they have use.

4. It adds complexity to communicating with your belayer which never seem to improve safety.

Warbonnet: I'm not sure how many on MP would agree with your statement. Good belayers "feel" where their partner is but I won't get into that........

My 2 cents. Don't rely on it for frequent use.

Warbonnet: Correct, only when you need to. Which might be frequently.

If you are getting over pumped, get in a screw and rest on it.

Warbonnet: Fine, if you do this, it's AO (aid). A rope flick is NOT intended to be a "rest". If the flick (not by itself but it takes tension by a slip) does not take tension, the grading remains the same.

If you aren't in a position to improve your technique (Warbonnet: like a rope flick) or get fit enough to use leashless tools proficiently on the grades you want to climb, get some leashes - they work on "leashless" tools as well. Pt

Warbonnet: leashless v. non-leashed tools have zero to do with this....zero. Parnell (sorry for the reference to a "photograph") is not using leashes. Is he climbing leashed or unleashed? (In fact, holding on to a Cobra as he is means his hands are beyond strong. You should buy his book "Winter Climbing", Neil Gresham, Ian Parnell; Rockfax publishing. Fantastic photos, the best I think I've seen in any ice climbing book).

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Your posts are very confusing. You know there is a quote function, right?

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
iceman777 wrote:Well here's my take What's wrong good footwork ? And picking your stances for placing a screw? There . Done! Idk how steep the ice is , good footwork along with tracking, monkey hang or whatever you want to call it is the key to safely climbing frozen water! Why do most ice climbers feel they need an aid while placing screws? BECAUSE THEY FEEL THERE FEET ARE GOING TO BLOW AT ANY NOMENT! DUH!!!!!!!!!! Instead of wasting energy practicing stupid crap while on tr spend that time getting your footwork dialed to the max , because as soon as you do that your going to discover you No longer- 1) death grip your tools or have any fear of dropping one , no more barfies. 2) need any form of aid to place a screw 3) are having more fun. And for Christi's sake if your on TR learn just how little you need to place that tool to climb securely! Again it's all in your footwork! Way back when I started ice climbing again I used a fifi attached to my right tool , thankfully I had a great partner who also happens to be a master ice climber show me why I didn't need that fifi hook ! Footwork !
I realize I am fruitlessly repeating myself so I'll give up: a rope flick is NOT aid.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
csproul wrote:Your posts are very confusing. You know there is a quote function, right?
Yes, thanks & sorry. They're confusing to me too.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
RobC2 wrote:It is most definitely not "all aid climbing anyway", anyone who espouses this philosophy is clueless regarding the ethics & conduct of modern ice & mixed climbing involving leash-less technique. If anything ice and mixed now approximates the freedom and dynamism of rock- climbing more than ever owing to a reliance on hand strength to actually hold on to the tools while you are climbing and placing gear... THIS is how it's done, no leashes tethers fifis rope looped over the pinky rest or other baloney just strength poise and presence of mind. vimeo.com/13582765
Yes, I know it's not aid climbing.....I was teasing.....& quoting others in the string who mentioned that. Completely agree with your point.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Buff Johnson wrote:If not for the chicks, then it's to see this
Exactly. Have seen this more than once (w/o the face smash). This looks like a Petzl drawing (or is it a photograph?), however, they don't make tethers. The 'biners are definitely BD's but it's not their drawing (as far as I know).

I see more and more name-brand, expert climbers worldwide using tethers (big consequences for a dropped tool).
paintrain · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 75

Warbonnet. - Not aid, just discreet tension? A0.5 maybe or do you consider this protection? It is hard to tell with the Faulkner-esque streams of consciousness posts . You suggest its not aid nor protection, so what's the point ? Flair?

I guess I failed to make my point as hooking your rope on a non rated plastic hook is psychological protection on any angle. Rest, not rest, my rope looks nice hanging there. However you want to dice it, you are flirting with trouble.

OP. Its a desperation move and not safe. Practice it too much and you will rely on it in the clutch rather than falling back on safer technique. Train like you fight.

Pt

Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340

So, I couldn't help myself and despite all the warnings and Petzl even showing that doing this with my Nomics was NOT recommended I still did it anyway.

Well, I'm alive! I didn't fall, thank God. I was in a good stance and putting in a screw at waist height and just decided to go for it.

I'm getting little nano biners and just going to clip my tools instead. If anything, it's because Petzl says that little bit of plastic is not meant for doing exactly what's been shown in this thread.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
paintrain wrote:Warbonnet. - Not aid, just discreet tension? A0.5 maybe or do you consider this protection? It is hard to tell with the Faulkner-esque streams of consciousness posts . You suggest its not aid nor protection, so what's the point ? Flair? I guess I failed to make my point as hooking your rope on a non rated plastic hook is psychological protection on any angle. Rest, not rest, my rope looks nice hanging there. However you want to dice it, you are flirting with trouble. OP. Its a desperation move and not safe. Practice it too much and you will rely on it in the clutch rather than falling back on safer technique. Train like you fight. Pt
PainTrain: Against all odds, I'll give you answers (non Faulkner-esque (apologies) but Hemingway did it too) but I won't apologize for referring to the Ian Parnell photos - they're useful, esp. the second one because it shows exactly how to do it. Specifically, the geometry (right tool high, good footing, left tool placed so not a lot of rope gets flicked on the left tool. I've seen people practicing it on the deck but they placed the "flicked" tool very high -- I think THAT'S dangerous if used on a climb for many reasons; too much rope out for one thing and cuts down on the "smoothness" of it all.

If you don't have the geometry down (rather simple but you can screw it up) then don't think about using this unless you've practiced it on the deck. Most importantly, place the screw on the OUTSIDE of everything, not in the middle; see Parnell's second photo.

The Parnell photos show his rope is relaxed....I nor does he nor his co-author Neil Gresham (or others I know that use it occasionally) consider that aid. If the leader called for tension (not a good thing to do IMO....just a first thought), then it's aid. Call it what you like: by any of the 12 or so int'l climbing ratings, it's at least A0. (I actually could care less about this; zero interest in that debate). But if you want me to take a position on what a rope flick would be rated (a conversation I don't want to have because I'm working on the ice climbing accident study & need to get back to that), I'll give in to it being "protection". So what. If you put a screw in and hang on that, what's that rated? My answer: Screw a mythical rating; You've limited your chance of falling and that's what's important.

Few are thinking this through: the biggest consideration in this scenario would be where the screw was placed on the other rope (assuming the team is climbing with two). If everything blew out (something I've not heard of happening in 35 yrs of climbing), consideration of how the entire protection system (from belayer to leader) is set up becomes the major point. I think some (incorrectly) envision "the rope flicker" taking a gnarly lead fall, relying only on a "piece of plastic".

I may use it once or twice/season....maybe; as I said earlier, if I do, I pretty much know when & where I'm going to use it. I do NOT wait until I'm totally pumped to do it... I think that's unsafe. You still need gas in the engine. As someone said in the string, if you're totally pumped out, put a screw in and hang out. Of course.

If everyone agrees on anything re: ice climbing, it's "don't fall". We all have our ways of assuring that doesn't happen but those who are good with the rope flick feel comfortable with it and it does not interrupt the flow of the climb....it takes seconds. If you aren't comfortable with it, don't do it. (But you might just practice it off the deck once or twice, just so you know how to do it. How big is your bucket of tricks)?

I agree with you: "train like you fight" (or I'll change your words but they mean the same thing: "fight like a train". This is to say people should NOT rely on this (unless you want it), should not be dependent on it too much and not be assured that it's going to save their ass if everything pops. I've talked with people who think they can flick it over the TOP of their (sharp) tool pick. Not me.

Re: the strength of the "plastic pinky": I have zero concern about them (unless they are cracked for some tool abuse reason) and of course the manufacturers are going to warn against it but not for reasons one might think. They are more concerned about climbers relying on this and leaning back against their tools. Oooopppsss....

The scenario diagram that Mr. Johnson added above is a warning about weighting tethers - in this case, BD's Spinner Leash. The warning has nothing to do with this discussion - nada.

I know what a number of the climbing equip engineers think....it's not an issue...but they don't write the liability brochures. If you're concerned about the ABS breaking, clip a biner in the spike hole and clip the rope through that. That takes more time but if you're good at it (meaning you can put the biner's nose in the spike's hole and clip the rope rather fluidly), you may want to substitute that from flicking the pinky rest (some incorrectly refer to it as the "pommel"; the pommel is located approx 1/2 up the shaft - don't flick the rope on that tiny thing (besides, it will slide off). You can use a biner & remain fairly fluid & not get bogged down..

As Dan Beausoleil (the head threader) said, he "tested it several dozen times in different ice conditions and not one failure". I assume he meant "failure" as the tool not popping.....don't know. Another said: "if you have a hammer on a tool, pound the other in and it isn't going anywhere." Agree.

Like most of the strings in MP, there are buckets of opinions in which they usually all fit. Some in this string have zero problem with it; I'm one of them. Others....like you (and I truly respect that)....believe one is "flirting with trouble." I get it.

It seems to me that the best & safest climbers are those with the biggest bucket of tricks, however seldom they are - or not - used, and that "flirting with trouble" is......falling.

I'll leave it with Alex Lowe's famous comment: "The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun!"
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Michael C wrote:So, I couldn't help myself and despite all the warnings and Petzl even showing that doing this with my Nomics was NOT recommended I still did it anyway. Well, I'm alive! I didn't fall, thank God. I was in a good stance and putting in a screw at waist height and just decided to go for it. I'm getting little nano biners and just going to clip my tools instead. If anything, it's because Petzl says that little bit of plastic is not meant for doing exactly what's been shown in this thread.
Good job. Do you mean to say that you're going to clip the nanos in the spike hole and run the rope through those instead of over the pinky? That works.

Did you ever think your tools were going to pop out or were you comfortable with them?
Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340
Warbonnet wrote: Good job. Do you mean to say that you're going to clip the nanos in the spike hole and run the rope through those instead of over the pinky? That works. Did you ever think your tools were going to pop out or were you comfortable with them?
My tools were pounded in pretty deep. Depending on the amount of slack in the rope, I think they might have held. But the pinky rest would have been questionable. So based on that, I'm not ever going to do it again unless it's a dire emergency and I'm out of options.

I climb leashless. But I'm going to make my own tethers with webbing and nanos. Cheaper than manufactured leashes, I've heard of BD leashes breaking during falls. So yeah, when I lead again I'll rely on my webbing/nano tethers as a back up while placing screws.

That being said, I'm wondering if something like a purcell prusik is a better option for clipping tools while placing screws? Thoughts???
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Michael C wrote: My tools were pounded in pretty deep. Depending on the amount of slack in the rope, I think they might have held. But the pinky rest would have been questionable. So based on that, I'm not ever going to do it again unless it's a dire emergency and I'm out of options. I climb leashless. But I'm going to make my own tethers with webbing and nanos. Cheaper than manufactured leashes, I've heard of BD leashes breaking during falls. So yeah, when I lead again I'll rely on my webbing/nano tethers as a back up while placing screws. That being said, I'm wondering if something like a purcell prusik is a better option for clipping tools while placing screws? Thoughts???
You definitely have the right idea and are thinking through was works for you....good. (I do answer your question about Purcells; I just want to put them in perspective; they may be a good compromise for you - smart alternative thinking.)

I can't speak to the strength of Nomic pinky rests because I've never seen anyone take extreme tension (falls) on them (or any others for that matter); pinky rests are just not a big deal to us because we're more interested in the entire system (run of two ropes, good stance, load & security of the weight bearing tool, the quality of the ice that the screw is going into, etc) than just that one piece of ABS (but I've beaten that to death).

I've seen a few slips of less than a foot and it wasn't the rope flick that stopped them - it was their other tool and/or replacement of the stance. I've never seen anyone take a flyer who was using a rope flick (but I'm sure people have and I'd bet anything it had nothing to do with a pinky rest failure). If someone were to take flying lessons in a rope flick stance, it would likely result from leaning way too far back (thinking their 'passive' tool would hold them but when weighted and leveraged, it popped). Just as in the Parnell photos, the stance should be a good one, everything relaxed (inc. the climber's head - maybe the hard part). The body should be vertical, not leaning into nor away from the ice. But you know that.

Some of the people I climb with use Nomics (leash less - I use leash less fiberglass Cobras or other ranges of tools such as the X Dreams, depending on what we're doing. I also think the best tool out there for what it does is the little known E-Climb Cryo X). We climb in the 5+/6 range so we tend not to see a lot of people anyway (say, Cody) so I can't speak to seeing a lot of people frequently using the technique. I think few (like us) do anyway but I'm sure a lot of 4 to 7 climbers who at least know of it & how to do it.

I didn't mention this before but people use it to stabilize a bit more (if they need it or a 'just in case' moment of imbalance) for taking photographs. Sounds silly....but I've used it for that. (I'll get crap from some in this string for even saying that but that's their problem).

Back in the day, we used to make our own tethers out of hollow webbing & shock cord but it was a pain in the butt, esp. figuring out the ends & how long the whole system needed to be (stretch cord to max length....or short of it ??). They worked but they didn't take weight....tethers are not designed for that...however, the webbing could have done so. We probably used them to take weight sometimes.....can't remember...too long ago.

If you've heard of BD tethers (or Cassin's) breaking, it was likely that they were placed (incorrectly so) to take weight (clipped into screw) or they caught on something when the climber fell. They should be girth hitched at one (don't need both) point on the harness and the biner end to the spike hole in the tool. If the climber wants to not use the tethers for some reason (eg different circumstances on a pitch), they simply unclip them and wrap both around the waist and clip them to the harness.

Can't remember what the breaking strength of those two brands are....too lazy to look it up but assume it's zero kg; they're designed to retrieve a dropped tool, end of story.

Your idea of using Purcells isn't a bad one because you can adjust the tension of each one (a potential bonus), assuming they (and/or the rope) aren't iced up in which case you have another issue to deal with. The other thing (maybe it's just my thing because I'm comfortable with the "simpleness" of just a one rope flick) is that you have more cordage to deal with, esp. when you unclip them and you're ready to go. But you can figure that out; were it me, & I was using Purcells, I'd clip both around my waist (parallel....not one to the left, one to the right) -- I like simplicity. The other thing you could easily do is slip them under your soft-shell...that's not a big deal. That will (mostly) keep the ice off them but if the rope is iced, you'd have to deal with that.

And you likely have gloves on.....I often underestimate that, thinking everything's simple until it....isn't because I haven't taken gloves (of various thickness) into account. It's just a function of how old I am......

I've not thought this through but for 5 seconds so people in the string who hate me, please don't pile on.....but Tibloc's might work (you should use them with Attache's or Attache-like biners,, otherwise, they will slip and you're toast. But Attache's are great in ice conditions (some or many will disagree).....wide enough to move around with gloves). Attaches are great on icy ropes (depending on diameter & ice caking). I'll have to think about that one a bit more before I'd recommend using them. If they do, your system could be super simple.

Michael, I think you're thinking it through properly and figuring out what may work for you. The Purcell compromise isn't a bad done; I'm sure you'll get it down where it was quick, smooth and safe. Icy ropes/cord would be my only concern but you are definitely on the right track. Try it.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Michael C wrote: That being said, I'm wondering if something like a purcell prusik is a better option for clipping tools while placing screws? Thoughts???
Michael, further to our discussion re: the use of Purcells, they can look a bit "messy" because of the long tails you need (as w/most knots) but if iced up, they can get in the way of this and that. So I'd "streamline' those puppies by taping down the tails (will need tape that can withstand the cold, wet, etc.)

The rope flick method is designed for using on ONE tool to "flick", the other as a weight bearing tool from which you are using with the other hand, however, if you had the proper stance and felt comfortable overall, you could use the second Purcell to cliip your second tool and shake out, look at your Android, even watch a movie. (Make sure your tools are placed well apart.

Some may say "use daisies" instead of Purcells. While tempting, they (daisies) have several drawbacks, one a major issue:. You can't slide the tension as you can a Purcell -- have to mess w/clipping loops (try that with gloves - boo). BUT, while I used daisies from probably the day Bill Forrest invented them, they fell out of favor because people were using them in ways that were dangerous; many still do. Go to BD's website and watch the sobering video clip on misuse of daisies (not that this situation is relevant to yours).

(People use them for tying in, however, they should be using a PAS, clove hitching, other ways and means. Many will disagree with this).

I'd stick with your Purcell idea.....it's a good one.

(Some find the Tibloc not good on icy ropes; I've used them enough to where I can get the ice off (usually) by judiciously using the aggressive teeth & sliding it, however, they can be tough on a rope if used repeatedly. I always have 2 on my harness "just in case''; good backup for getting up/down ropes, hauling, rescue, etc. They weigh nothing'.)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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