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pocket training theory on hangboards

Original Post
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

one of the things that i have read here and there is that pocket training on hangboards should be performed on an edge, as opposed to with pockets. several people have posted that the reason for this is that using an edge eliminates the support provided by the side friction of the pocket, which results in better isolation of the muscles being trained.

does anybody have any idea where this theory originated, or what sort of evidence exists to support the theory? my guess is that it originated from an article that neil gresham wrote, or perhaps he relayed information that he had received elsewhere.

Adam Leedy · · Austin, TX · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 760

Sonny Trotter is a proponent of this idea and addresses it in his blog post about the V-board
sonnietrotter.com/the-v-board/

Ryan Palo · · Bend, oregon · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 605

You wont find any real theory outside of anecdotal.

I stopped using pockets for exactly the reason you mentioned, I could cheat the exercise by using the sides of the pocket/using the additional friction. I think anyone who has used a hangboard can tell you this.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

thanks for the replies. i have spent quite a bit of time thinking about this lately. how does the additional friction hurt your workout though? i am not seeing how it would necessarily help isolate the muscles/tendons you are trying to train.

Alvaro Arnal · · Aspen, CO · Joined May 2010 · Points: 1,535
slim wrote:thanks for the replies. i have spent quite a bit of time thinking about this lately. how does the additional friction hurt your workout though? i am not seeing how it would necessarily help isolate the muscles/tendons you are trying to train.
I've thought about this a bit in the past as well and I don't think that it makes a difference as to which muscles/tendons you're isolating. My opinion is that if you use the pockets then there's more friction, so add more weight. If you don't use the pockets there's less friction so use less weight. The muscles/tendons that are being used should be the same and you can replicate the amount of stress with the weight, no?
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

When I use an edge, I feel it more in the forearms, but with high friction pockets, I feel it a lot more in the finger tendons. But that's mostly b/c I can hang w/ less fingers/weaker combos. I guess the question is, is stressing the tendons over the muscle what you are after?

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
reboot wrote:When I use an edge, I feel it more in the forearms, but with high friction pockets, I feel it a lot more in the finger tendons. But that's mostly b/c I can hang w/ less fingers/weaker combos. I guess the question is, is stressing the tendons over the muscle what you are after?
i would think you want both(?).

jake, when you say that in theory it makes sense in terms of strict isolation, what do you mean by that?

here are a couple of my thoughts...

1) if you think of a somewhat similar model, a rope running over a carabiner being used as a toprope.... the friction helps keep the rope in place (ie not moving) at the contact patch with the biner. however, the tension in the rope is constant despite the friction conditions at the contact patch, provided that there is no movement.

if you drew the load path through the finger, below the contact patch, the loads will be the same up to the point of the contact patch. through the contact patch area the load distribution might vary per area due to greater contact area, but that shouldn't really affect the loads in the tendons/muscles below. in summary, it seems that the loads in the tendons/muscles will be entirely dictated by the weight of your body.

2) an analogy i was thinking of... say a cyclist is doing a steep hill climb strength/power workout. would it be better if the hill had good friction or was coated in a sheet of ice? neglecting the logistical problems associated with trying to stay on top of a bike on a sheet of ice... the cyclist would be really limited on the amount of strength he could apply without slipping.

thanks for the replies so far.
Nate Reno · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 156

Removing (really, reducing) the friction variable by using an edge vs a pocket, is just taking a variable out of the equation.
On my metolius simulator, using the 2f pockets resulted in lots of friction on the sides. It certainly would give my skin a workout! (which was a bit of both good and bad)
The pockets on the rptc give much less friction on the sides vs the textured downward pulling surface, so this hasn't been a thought since switching.

Sometimes its just really cold in your garage, and your skin is hard and glassy and slick, and you don't want the lack of friction to be a factor in your workout.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
slim wrote:if you think of a somewhat similar model, a rope running over a carabiner being used as a toprope....
I think they are completely different... you need to actually contract your muscle to stay on the hold. A slipperier surface requires harder contraction (you need to maintain a steeper finger joint angle) to stay on for the same hanging weight, so the force applied by the muscle is not constant, unlike a hung top rope. The tendon load, however, would depend mostly on the # of fingers & your hang weight.

I think if you are failing b/c of hurting skin or sore tendon, then that's probably not optimal if you are going for muscle hypertrophy.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
reboot wrote: I think they are completely different... you need to actually contract your muscle to stay on the hold. A slipperier surface requires harder contraction (you need to maintain a steeper finger joint angle) to stay on for the same hanging weight, so the force applied by the muscle is not constant, unlike a hung top rope. The tendon load, however, would depend mostly on the # of fingers & your hang weight. I think if you are failing b/c of hurting skin or sore tendon, then that's probably not optimal if you are going for muscle hypertrophy.
that's a good point about joint angle, you definitely have to increase joint angle and focus the pressure downward to hold an edge with lower friction. but, that is kind of tough to do when hanging a 2 finger or mono pocket. it seems like that particular contraction/joint angle would be better and more safely trained with the 4 finger open crimp or full crimp grip(?).

but that being said... if your tendon and muscle are a serial connection, wouldn't the load be equal in both? unless maybe other surrounding muscle is squeezing the contracted muscle and taking the load? (kind of like one of those little paper finger traps).
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Nate Reno wrote: Sometimes its just really cold in your garage, and your skin is hard and glassy and slick, and you don't want the lack of friction to be a factor in your workout.
this last few weeks in particular. ughh.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
slim wrote: that's a good point about joint angle, you definitely have to increase joint angle and focus the pressure downward to hold an edge with lower friction. but, that is kind of tough to do when hanging a 2 finger or mono pocket. it seems like that particular contraction/joint angle would be better and more safely trained with the 4 finger open crimp or full crimp grip(?).
Sounds like more the reason to train for it :) There are some practical issue w/ training 4 fingers vs isolation. 1) it's hard to stress all 4 fingers to the same degree. So training individual or pairs of fingers makes sure there are no lazy fingers when you are using 4. 2) load to other parts of the body: shoulder, elbow, etc from needing a shit ton of weight to achieve the same load on the fingers.
slim wrote: but that being said... if your tendon and muscle are a serial connection, wouldn't the load be equal in both?
You are right, although the strength of our muscle is not constant at different degrees of contraction.
Mark Paulson · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 141

I hear the "cheating" argument, but at the same time, what exactly are you cheating? If adding skin friction allows you to put on more weight then put on more weight. I know the point of hangboarding is isolation and quantification- however, I also want to be realistic in what I'm actually training for. It's an extremely rare occurrence where I'm using a two finger pocket outside and _not_ trying to create as much friction as possible, often by torquing the fingers into the sides of the pocket. I want that skin tough, and whatever secondary connective tissue involved to be as strong as possible.

Brandon Baldwin · · Sahuarita, AZ · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 15

I stopped using the pockets because it was tearing up my skin. I would add weight, but after a while I realized that only my calluses were getting stronger and the burn I was feeling was my skin stretching. If I took a couple weeks off my calluses would go away and I would have to greatly reduce how much weight I could carry. I have had better luck removing weight with a pulley system and using the crimpy edges.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
reboot wrote: Sounds like more the reason to train for it :) There are some practical issue w/ training 4 fingers vs isolation. 1) it's hard to stress all 4 fingers to the same degree. So training individual or pairs of fingers makes sure there are no lazy fingers when you are using 4. 2) load to other parts of the body: shoulder, elbow, etc from needing a shit ton of weight to achieve the same load on the fingers. You are right, although the strength of our muscle is not constant at different degrees of contraction.
this brings up more questions - is it really better to try to force yourself into more of an 'active' position when training the pockets? when i say active, i mean trying to make the angles in your joints more acute so that you can stay on the hold? to me, it seems like this is almost like trying to crimp on a pocket, which i try to avoid.

from my experience climbing on pockets (outdoors), it seems like you usually grab them in a pretty open position. i would guess that the pocket grips are generally held with the most open (obtuse) joint angles. if this is indeed the case, wouldn't it be better, ie more specific, to train the pocket grips replicating the more open joint angles?
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
slim wrote: this brings up more questions - is it really better to try to force yourself into more of an 'active' position when training the pockets? when i say active, i mean trying to make the angles in your joints more acute so that you can stay on the hold? to me, it seems like this is almost like trying to crimp on a pocket, which i try to avoid. from my experience climbing on pockets (outdoors), it seems like you usually grab them in a pretty open position. i would guess that the pocket grips are generally held with the most open (obtuse) joint angles. if this is indeed the case, wouldn't it be better, ie more specific, to train the pocket grips replicating the more open joint angles?
The angle may not change perceptibly, but I bet the pressure distribution is different. With a high friction pocket, you are likely using the lip friction than what's available at the finger tip, which is why people say it feels like a skin workout. But as the COG changes when you make a move, the lip friction reduces & you'll be forced to apply more pressure to the skin inside the pocket. This is true for slopers as well, you need active engagement to more evenly distribute the pressure to the hold.

But really, understanding the physics (which I'm sure I've botched) is secondary to understanding what's causing the failure. For me, it's lacking sufficient engagement from forearm muscle, so that's what I should be training.
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

you have some really good points. one question though - does hanging with less weight and less friction engage the muscle more than hanging with more weight and more friction? it would be interesting to see test results of this question, but it would probably be pretty difficult to test.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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