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Open handed crimping technique

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wing thing · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 115

A friend recently forwarded this video to me about how to prevent tendon injuries using an open handed crimping technique vs. using a thumb over index finger technique. I was wondering what other climbers feel about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wKFWplxFwQ

I noticed from a recent climbing video of Alex Honnold that he was using the thumb over index finger technique. Where's the evidence for the increase in tendon injuries with that method?

MRock · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 10

I think it depends on how small the surface of the hold is. I only thumb over on really tiny holds. Most holds are "easier" when you can thumb down and "pinch" on them

Alvaro Arnal · · Aspen, CO · Joined May 2010 · Points: 1,535

The evidence is in the amount of people that have ruptured their tendons using a closed crimp compared to an open hand.

If you're just starting out then yes, you should focus on climbing open handed as much as possible since the connective tissues in your fingers aren't yet strong enough to handle the added stress of harder crimping. Once you've built up that tendon strength (after years of climbing and training) then open crimp and closed crimp are much more powerful grips on small holds, especially when moving through that hold.

Charles Kinbote · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 5

I think it's wise to develop a strong 4 finger open grip, as well as a truly open 3 finger grip. I had a bunch of pulley tendon injuries in my first 3-4 years of climbing from crimping too hard, too soon, and too often. Tired with being injured all the time, I hit the hangboard to develop some open hand strength and started crimping as little as possible in my actual climbing. Haven't had a pulley injury in the 2-3 years since, and am climbing harder grades.

I only have to use the full crimp when I'm doing longer moves on small holds, where the pulling hand is at my shoulder or below, and you have to exert some outward force on the hold. If the moves are small or traversing, I can get away with open-handing most holds.

That said, sometimes you have to use the death crimp, so gradually building up crimp strength is important too. Best done in a controlled setting, like on a hangboard or low stress climbing situations.

I don't know if there's any hard evidence that a full thumb-wrapped crimp is more injurious than an open crimp, but there's lots of anecdotal evidence. The theory is that a more acute DIP joint angle creates more outward pressure on the pulley tendons.

Noah J · · Desert, NM · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 446

Evidence?

"Rock climbers are often using the unique crimp grip position to hold small ledges. Thereby the proximal interphalangeal (PIP) joints are flexed about 90° and the distal interphalangeal joints are hyperextended maximally. During this position of the finger joints bowstringing of the flexor tendon is applying very high load to the flexor tendon pulleys and can cause injuries and overuse syndromes. The objective of this study was to investigate bowstringing and forces during crimp grip position. Two devices were built to measure the force and the distance of bowstringing and one device to measure forces at the fingertip. All measurements of 16 fingers of four subjects were made in vivo. The largest amount of bowstringing was caused by the flexor digitorum profundus tendon in the crimp grip position being less using slope grip position (PIP joint extended). During a warm-up, the distance of bowstringing over the distal edge of the A2 pulley increased by 0.6 mm (30%) and was loaded about 3 times the force applied at the fingertip during crimp grip position. Load up to 116 N was measured over the A2 pulley. Increase of force in one finger holds by the quadriga effect was shown using crimp and slope grip position."

Schweizer, Andreas. "Biomechanical properties of the crimp grip position in rock climbers." Journal of biomechanics 34.2 (2001): 217-223.

"The present work displayed the first quantitative data of forces acting on tendons and pulleys during specific sport-climbing grip techniques. A three-dimensional static biomechanical model was used to estimate finger muscle tendon and pulley forces during the “slope” and the “crimp” grip. In the slope grip the finger joints are flexed, and in the crimp grip the distal interphalangeal (DIP) joint is hyperextended while the other joints are flexed. The tendons of the flexor digitorum profundus and superficialis (FDP and FDS), the extensor digitorum communis (EDC), the ulnar and radial interosseus (UI and RI), the lumbrical muscle (LU) and two annular pulleys (A2 and A4) were considered in the model.

For the crimp grip in equilibrium conditions, a passive moment for the DIP joint was taken into account in the biomechanical model. This moment was quantified by relating the FDP intramuscular electromyogram (EMG) to the DIP joint external moment. Its intensity was estimated at a quarter of the external moment. The involvement of this parameter in the moment equilibrium equation for the DIP joint is thus essential. The FDP-to-FDS tendon-force ratio was 1.75:1 in the crimp grip and 0.88:1 in the slope grip. This result showed that the FDP was the prime finger flexor in the crimp grip, whereas the tendon tensions were equally distributed between the FDP and FDS tendons in the slope grip. The forces acting on the pulleys were 36 times lower for A2 in the slope grip than in the crimp grip, while the forces acting on A4 were 4 times lower. This current work provides both an experimental procedure and a biomechanical model that allows estimation of tendon tensions and pulley forces crucial for the knowledge about finger injuries in sport climbing."

Vigouroux, Laurent, et al. "Estimation of finger muscle tendon tensions and pulley forces during specific sport-climbing grip techniques." Journal of biomechanics 39.14 (2006): 2583-2592.

grog m · · Saltlakecity · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 70

I didn't agree with what the gentleman in the video said. He didn't sound credible or experienced. The crimp grip is without a doubt a stronger way to hold small holds.

Noah J, I can't understand what you posted. Will you please TLDR it?

Peter Beal · · Boulder Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,825

I'm sorry but this is a really stupid video. I open hand all the time but there is no way that crimping is "bad technique" per se.

I cannot believe this has had almost 250K views.

Rob Gordon · · Hollywood, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 115

Garbage.

Shelton Hatfield · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 650

I think that there are some nuggets of truth in this video, although it probably could have been 5 minutes shorter, and would likely have been much better that way.

I'm very confident that the open hand grip is less likely to rupture tendons than the "full crimp" (thumb on top).

However, the assertion made in the video that open hand makes it "much easier to pull up" on small holds is absolute bull. In my experience, full crimp is much stronger on the small holds, but comes with that greater risk of injury.

I crimped too much, too hard, too soon. I'm still paying for it. I now avoid the full crimp when I can. It's not hard for me to tell that it hurts my fingers. But I still do it when the holds are small and I don't want to fall off of them.

BOTTOM LINE: Listen to your body, folks

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

i think it probably depends on a lot of things. most pocket grip configurations are open handed and people get injured on pockets. slopers kill my wrists (and elbows, and shoulders,...). some people get hurt crimping. i have been crimping like my life depends on it for 27 years without really any problems. monos on my middle finger are fine, but i can't imagine ring finger monos (shudder). several of my friends say they are stronger on ring finger monos than middle finger monos. everybody is different.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Closed crimping is, without a doubt, stronger than open hand. It's also, without a doubt, more damaging to your tendons, so you should avoid it as much as possible. This is not the same as not ever doing it. Pumped out of your gord and trying to send your project? People will do anything to squeeze out a tiny advantage when they're at your limit. Doing laps (or, possibly, ANYTHING) in a gym? Save your tendons. The issue is that closed crimping will make up for poor finger strength (at the expense of your tendons), so people will jump onto their first 11 and just closed-crimp their entire way up, opening the way up to injury. With practice (and well developed finger strength), you should be able to open-crimp most of those holds, saving your tendons.

Rob Gordon · · Hollywood, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 115

Never had a problem closed-crimping ever. Not even when I weighed 217. Stop the hysteria people.

That being said, I don't fully wrap the thumb over. I find squeezing the thumb against and slightly on top of my pointer finger the most effective.

Pockets are the true enemy.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I think a lot of the "obvious" claims are false.

Your hand is stronger in the open grip. Try this experiment on a hangboard. Hang from any hold with a full crimp and add weight increments. You'll find a level at which the crimp "collapses" but you can still hang on. So the open grip is stronger.

What you get from the crimp is a bigger, perhaps much bigger, normal force vector to the hold surface. This means you get more friction with the crimp and so are less likely to slip off. I think the additional friction gained is easily mistaken for greater hand strength, since in some circumstances you can hold on with a crimp but will slip off with an open hand, even though the open hand is stronger.

The idea that there is something intrinsically "wrong" with the full crimp is silly. You have to use that grip some of the time. It is more likely to produce injury, so there is something to be said for opening up one's grip when one can, but that just isn't going to work all the time.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

I use both, depends on what works best on the hold.

Personally I find crimps with a small edge that you can get a finger behind gets the thumb normally. Holds that are flat crimes with no edge tend to get open hand without thumb more often.

It all comes down to how much bite you get / need when you add the extra thumb force down on the hold. The thumb is basically jamming your finger down into a small groove to pin it in. If there is no groove you grip than that thumb is probably worthless pressing your finger down on a flat surface (if anything the extra force is pushing your hand off the slopperish crimp)

kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608

Noah.J wrote:
> ... loaded about 3 times the force applied ...
> Schweizer, Andreas. "Biomechanical properties of the crimp grip position
> in rock climbers." Journal of biomechanics 34.2 (2001): 217-223.
> ... ...
> The forces acting on the pulleys were 36 times lower for A2 in
> the slope grip than in the crimp grip ...
> Vigouroux, Laurent, et al. "Estimation of finger muscle tendon tensions
> and pulley forces during specific sport-climbing grip techniques."
> Journal of biomechanics 39.14 (2006): 2583-2592.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Regarding the Schweizer article:

Yes the forces are higher on some tendons + muscles in the "closed crimp" grip than in any sort of open grip.
But that's not the important question. After all, the forces which strong climbers inflict on their finger tendons even using open grip is way more than most non-climber humans can apply. But the climbers first used progressive training to grow and strengthen those tendons + muscles. So the climbers do not get injured by those higher forces, because those forces are significantly less than the maximum they have trained for.

Same with "closed crimp": The forces are higher, but if they are less than what you have carefully progressively grown and strengthened your tendons + muscles to handle, then you don't get injured.
That's what's missing in this "evidence": the comparison between increased applied force and increased capacity to bear force.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Regarding the Vigoroux article:

"36 times" sounds a real lot, and it is.
But sometime within the last few years, I carefully analyzed that article and then carefully explained in a thread on MountainProject forum how its methodology was fundamentally flawed.

Just because you can find something from a google search which sounds scientific, doesn't mean it's correct.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Top climbers (as shown in videos) sometimes do use thumb-over closed crimp grip.
Because sometimes (on small edges) that's what works.

Ken

kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
rgold wrote:Your hand is stronger in the open grip. Try this experiment on a hangboard. Hang from any hold with a full crimp and add weight increments. You'll find a level at which the crimp "collapses" but you can still hang on. ... What you get from the crimp is a bigger normal force vector to the hold surface. This means you get more friction ...
Very interesting point. Thanks.
What's funny for me is that so many sources said that climbers over-used the crimp and so had weak open grips. So I focused on training open grip (mainly in campusing). Then later I noticed that my (no-thumb-over) crimp grip was less strong than my open grip -- no doubt about it.

I had been thinking that this was surprising -- and somehow "wrong"(?) - (so I adjusted my training to include (no-thumb-over) crimping).

But now here I am learning rather that it's normal -- to be expected.

Thanks for the fresh perspective.

Ken

P.S. Slight adjustment to the third sentence in the quote above:
"Hang from any from any hold (from which you can hang at all with Open grip), and hang from that with full thumb-over crimp."
Because on my finger board there is a pair of small edges from which I can just barely hang on with full crimp, but not at all with open grip.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608

My suspicion is that there are two ways that the full closed crimp grip causes injury:

a) Climbers who have not carefully progressively trained for crimping find themselves unexpectedly in a situation (perhaps while leading on outdoor rock?) where they really need to use the full crimp. And not surprisingly their unprepared attempt to crimp then exceeds the strength of a key finger tendon or muscle, and it gets injured.

b) A climber has done progressive training to build the key tendon + muscle strength to successfully grip a small edge in a real climbing situation. But then their foot blows off its hold, and so the sudden unexpected applied force exceeds the capacity of the tendon or muscle, and it gets injured.

b2) Perhaps the bigger problem with the full crimp is how it responds when the force on it is suddenly unexpectedly released (?)

b3) Perhaps the bigger problem with the full crimp is what happens when it unexpected "collapses" down into open grip (?)

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
rgold wrote:I think a lot of the "obvious" claims are false. Your hand is stronger in the open grip. Try this experiment on a hangboard. Hang from any hold with a full crimp and add weight increments. You'll find a level at which the crimp "collapses" but you can still hang on. So the open grip is stronger.the time.
While I agree a lot of the "obvious" claims are false, I don't think your experiment is valid either. Remember hangboarding is a trained response & my wife & I definitely have different stronger grip, no argument about it. She prefers more closed crimp & I used to have a more closed grip until I spent a lot of time training much more open grip. Btw, even though we have a lot of different strengths/weaknesses, our raw climbing levels are pretty close. There are times we each wished we had the other's strength in a particular grip.

As for your experiment, a muscle, when fatigued, may elongate before being overcomed, but that doesn't mean it's stronger in the more elongated state. The more I do max weighted hangs/one arm hangs, the more my hand need to close. Yes, I may be able to hold on for a split second or longer in the open hand grip, but there's no way I can hold it for as long in that grip than starting in a half crimp (we are talking 5-10 sec hang time).

And of course, what does stronger/weaker mean? whether we can latch the hold, hold on statically (for how long?), or make the next move?
Eliot Augusto · · Lafayette, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 60

I train both grips, and I use both outside. I'd say my closed grip is slightly stronger, but I never use a closed crimp if the feet are tenuous. I believe that both versions of the crimp should be used and neither is wrong, but there is usually a best way to grab a hold.

I think this issue comes down to training. Anything you train will be stronger that anything you don't. I also see a TON of rock climbers, even at "hardman gyms" that don't train properly. They just train the climbing muscle groups in the "pull" direction and very rarely in the "push" direction. Hangboarding is no exception. You should be training hanging off of full jugs as often as a 3 pad micro crimp. They use a lot of the same muscles, but slightly in slightly different orientations and amounts depending on the type of hold.

In response to rgold, with whom I agree with 99% of the time, I think you may be mistaking the endurance bit by changing holds. In the same way that you can change from pull-ups to chin-ups to get a few more reps in, I feel the same can be done on a hangboard to get a few more seconds in. I try and activate my back and shoulders when hanging, and often find myself able to hold on longer when I relax at the end of a rep. When I compared the times hanging off of a single pad open crimp and a single pad closed crimp, I was able to hang much longer on a closed grip. But I can feel the stress in my fingers with a closed crimp.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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