Adding Bolts between runouts

This last, of course, completely misses the point.

Rob Dillon wrote:This last, of course, completely misses the point.

Just being practical. Do you disagree about the effectiveness?

Not sure it would really kill the adventure spirit or not.

More adventure climbers might equal more support for preserving adventure climbs.

Kind of a distraction from the main argument above though.

For starters, people have come up with PG-13, so now we've got a 5-point scale.

Secondly: how much more do you need to know? Do you you need a SPF (sharp pointy flake) or a TBE (tree branch enema) ? Most helpful route describers will say something like Original Route 5.11a (5.8 R) or tell you the R is no harder than 5.8, so really, what's the point? R is runout at the crux. G means you have to try hard to really blow it. X means DFU.

Or do you just miss the Hard Very Severe adjectival system?

And: if you remove adventure, are we still adventure climbers?

Rob Dillon wrote:For starters, people have come up with PG-13, so now we've got a 5-point scale. Secondly: how much more do you need to know? Do you you need a SPF (sharp pointy flake) or a TBE (tree branch enema) ? Most helpful route describers will say something like Original Route 5.11a (5.8 R) or tell you the R is no harder than 5.8, so really, what's the point? R is runout at the crux. G means you have to try hard to really blow it. X means DFU. Or do you just miss the Hard Very Severe adjectival system? And: if you remove adventure, are we still adventure climbers?

Well, if you look at the development of the YDS and the V scales, I think it suggests you need at least 10 numbers to start with :-)

NC Rock Climber wrote: The thing is we all play our games on the same rock and we all have VERY different values. To get along, we need a little mutual respect. Give some, get some. Give no respect, don't be surprised when your concerns fall on deaf ears.

Agreed,

To be fair, plenty of the people being decried as young and ignorant sport climbers are not. I personally take long walks up slabs from time to time with a few of them, I enjoy the exposure, it's fun, but it's not the only way to enjoy climbing.

There is not one idiot "sport climber" that posted about the necessity of retro-bolting the BY. Not one. Most Sport climbers do recognize that there is value in these risky types of climbs, hell, I would still like to lead the BY some day.

On the other hand, there are several self aggrandizing old curmudgeons calling sport climbers names, telling them they lack balls, their weak, threatening them with violence and other silly shit designed to make up for a lack in logic. This is the crux of the situation, there is one party who is incapable of being respectful to the other, and it is not the young kids who sport climb, it is the older climbers who are terrified they will be forgotten if the sport changes.

USBRIT wrote:Yes now I realize its a total waste of time posting on the above subject as most of the posters, more so the anonymous, have no experience at all on this subject. They have never placed a bolt on lead or produced on sight or other wise a first ascent. They only lead in total BS and are lost souls without chalked holds and a close line of bolts .They think climbing has to be on a crowded crag with the screams of TAKE and shirts off compulsory. Most are 5.8 climbers trying to climb 5.12+....together with their quick draws a pair of aiders would help. Thankfully there are still some genuine climbers and mountaineers who do post on these forums ...but very very few.Less from now... Now watch the bluster of these impostors...........

This is the reason US Brit gets no respect, he gives no respect. Why should someone respect a person who insists that anyone who disagrees with their religion is an asshole? Respect is not something that you earn by getting old and ornery, you earn it by being respectful and leading by example.

Do I expect respect? Fuck no. But then again, I don't give it. You get what you give, and age does not change the fact.

Whoa, everyone is waxing eloquent these days..

J Q wrote: Agreed, To be fair, plenty of the people being decried as young and ignorant sport climbers are not. I personally take long walks up slabs from time to time with a few of them, I enjoy the exposure, it's fun, but it's not the only way to enjoy climbing. There is not one idiot "sport climber" that posted about the necessity of retro-bolting the BY. Not one. Most Sport climbers do recognize that there is value in these risky types of climbs, hell, I would still like to lead the BY some day. On the other hand, there are several self aggrandizing old curmudgeons calling sport climbers names, telling them they lack balls, their weak, threatening them with violence and other silly shit designed to make up for a lack in logic. This is the crux of the situation, there is one party who is incapable of being respectful to the other, and it is not the young kids who sport climb, it is the older climbers who are terrified they will be forgotten if the sport changes. This is the reason US Brit gets no respect, he gives no respect. Why should someone respect a person who insists that anyone who disagrees with their religion is an asshole? Respect is not something that you earn by getting old and ornery, you earn it by being respectful and leading by example. Do I expect respect? Fuck no. But then again, I don't give it. You get what you give, and age does not change the fact.

Well said! Well said...

Paul Ross is the man.
Any one who thinks otherwise can piss off!

chills wrote:Paul Ross is the man. Any one who thinks otherwise can piss off!

LOL! chilis brings his "a-game" to the discussion! Go MENSA!

That's all that needs to be said.
If you don't know that already do some homework.

Jared Moore wrote:So, I am wondering...what are the ethics of adding a bolt in between large runouts? Is it a bad thing to make a route safer for someone to try, so that the risk of taking a bad whipper or even decking isn't as high? I realize that some climbs are so easy and putting bolts there can sometimes be silly, however, why have runouts on 10s or harder? I would appreciate only serious constructive comments...

After scrolling through all the blabbering, here is my shpeal on it: If the run out can be protected with gear, or is 2 grades below the stated route grade, DON'T retrobolt. If the run out is blank, cruxy and could potentially result in a decking, then be my guest and add that bolt. Do it from ground up though.

The Rope Gun wrote: After scrolling through all the blabbering, here is my shpeal on it: If the run out can be protected with gear, or is 2 grades below the stated route grade, DON'T retrobolt. If the run out is blank, cruxy and could potentially result in a decking, then be my guest and add that bolt. Do it from ground up though.

Now it's set in stone. We can all rest easier. Wait... is that two letter grades or two number grades?

CDC wrote: Maybe take up golf !

Too dangerous.

Bolts added to my runouts will be happily accepted as gear donations. Can always use another bolt hanger or three... even pro deal isn't free. You have the right to add, I have the right to subtract.

Funny that I rarely (as in "never") hear any hard persons saying "This route has too many bolts... think I'll throw in a run-out here on this 5.5 section."

Cheers!

Locker wrote:"hey Brit, got any tips on how sporto, grade-chasin posers can be as awesome as you are? I'm in for a crusty old man sac competition. I first put on rock shoes 30 years ago. Your move." ~~~ David S. "David- you do realize USBRIT did the "fissure brown" in 1959, in boots, with a pack, and worthless pro right? he first put his shoes on 60(plus) years ago." ~~~ cieneguita LMAO! Perfect!

I'm just going to quote this for posterity.
I imagine David's mouth had to stretch to cavernous proportions to accommodate his foot (feet at this point). I doubt his asshole is faring any better after getting pounded so hard.
Now y'all carry on telling us that you're scared of slabs.

Boissal wrote: I'm just going to quote this for posterity. I image David's mouth had to stretch to cavernous proportions to accommodate his foot (feet at this point). I doubt his asshole is faring any better after getting pounded so hard. Now y'all carry on telling us that you're scared of slabs.

I'm basking in the irony of USBRIT's flaming ANON posters while being an ANON poster. Would I have written what I wrote if his name was Famous OG Paul Ross? No... I didn't know because (wait for it...) he was ANONymous!

But, thanks for being concerned about the state of my a$$ and how far my mouth can open. These fine folks welcome newcomers: homoclimbtastic.com/
.

Yawn... wake me up when the psychobabble ends. I made a miscalculation and subsequently apologized to Mr Ross, but the flaming by other posters who want a fight continues. Whatever entertains the masses.

I'm just another weekend warrior bored in cubicle world like most others on this site.

VaGenius wrote:Guideline #1 says don't be a jerk. Dave, it's not your logic that people dislike, you have experience and value to contribute to the site and these dicussions. It's your chest-beating, condescension, and general rudeness. You bitch unendingly about how caught up in themselves these mythical Norse Ancient Crusters are, but I see zero difference in your approach. Your outlook is right, it's the only one, urrybotty bein stoopit up in heah, except Erudite Dave. Face it. You're stoned, have time on your hands you'd benefit from using to climb more, but instead are indulging in fruitless ego jousts with near or total strangers online. I know this because you are a 30 year climber, and are Patient Zero of a new pathology only known as "Internet forum clash addiction." I recommend immediate cold turkey, take a couple of months off and see if your family, your friends, and you r ticklist don't all benefit from the sudden bounty of free time you'll have now that you're not busy telling Paul Ross and anyone else with a chuff handle how lame they are. We know they're lame, so are you and I, we're posting on effing mountainproject. The two are synonomous. I'm learning about the Alpine Up and how to stretch out my shoes on here, there is actual, measurable benefit to my life and my climbing from these interactions, at least some of them. Spraying as you tend to does nothing but reinforce the stereotype us tiddlywink placing high top wearers tend to hold of bolt clippers. Participate in the discussion, fine. When you start trying to see if your dick measures up against British senior citizens and find suddenly that it doesn't and won't, perhaps there is a lesson to be learned about more valuable ways to spend your time. Seriously, champ. Why don't you sit out the next few rounds, calm down, just stop talking for a while, ok?

Let me condense this long winded Killis post - Dave, youre a dick and it takes one to know one.

My post. I'm amazed it's still there. There are at least two or three others that were snarky but not really offensive to anyone in particular that had the words "ball cupping" in them and were immediately removed. Not that I mind. I mean, we NEED moderation, or else threads just turn into dick measuring shitshows, you know?

MJMobes wrote: Let me condense this long winded Killis post - Dave, youre a dick and it takes one to know one.

Nice shootin', Tex! Yeee hawww!!

Locker wrote:"You have the right to add, I have the right to subtract." Something to consider: JTNP... Indian Cove... You can hand drill bolts/hangers (Of course you do need the Skippers approval)... Legal to leave the hardware in the rock... ILLLEGAL to remove it as it is now the property of JTNP...

Soon as I can find the gas to drive 2,400+ miles to get there, and as soon as I bolt a line of any kind there (instead of leaving it to Todd and the crew), this will be a problem.

As of now, I'm back here on all that tame rock the people from "God's Rock" country don't cotton to much (aka "West Virginia crags outside the New River Gorge") and here if you add bolts to our routes, we WILL treat them as donations.

And, like so many others, there is a long walk from the rules made up by folks at the NPS/NFS to what they can actually enforce...

Just sayin'