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I need help protecting my Grandma's hometown's natural beauty from the recent influx of climbers.

Original Post
Gh0stw0lf · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0

Hello all, I'm a first time poster here to Mountain Project although a longtime lurker/member of the climbing community over in /r/Climbing from reddit.

Anyways, I was redirected here from there and I want to spread awareness and learn more myself on how to deal with the problems of climbers coming into a very small, old town in Mexico.

I will be posting a long story and a short story so feel free to read the part you have time for.

Long Story:
Guadalcazar, San Luis Potosi, Mexico is the (very) small town which my Grandma is from and is current living there. My mom and her family also grew up there from childhood until the mid-teens. I was google searching the town (I visit extensively) because I wanted to write a short comprehensive history of it so that the knowledge would not be lost.

To my delight, I found a website called fiveten.com had visited there and had listed Guadalcazar as one of the top places to climb in Mexico. The reason I was so happy is because it's a dying town with little population and only a huge boom during the winter and summer months for the town festivals. I think the population is around 500 - 700 people.

Article on the town by FiveTen

Here is the video: youtube.com/watch?v=jWhvvbo…

I'm not sure if the guy in the article (American climber Urs Moosmuller) and the guy in the video who credited for finding and mapping climbing routes in most of Mexico (Christian Ehlert) are famous climbers but they've done some great work marking Guadalcazar as a tourist destination.

I showed this to my mom who runs the public Facebook page for the town and is on several committees in the town and she said that Christian had recently contacted her before he shot the video asking for hotel information. Sounds good so far right? Well, here comes the bad part.
The climbers have been known to all the people within the town to destroy Stalagmites that have been forming in over a metre length. They do so (I'm assuming since I'm no climber) either by accident while climbing and/or drilling as is shown in the video.
I'm not sure what is or isn't allowed but the destruction of such beautiful rock formations is just unbearable to watch. Guadalcazar right now is virgin territory and the town is in possession of gorgeous shots of caves and grotto that it is afraid to publish for fear of more destructive climbers.

This is where I need your help, guys. Where can I go to contact these guys who are very clearly making the map to come here. I want to let them know that climbers are encouraged as the tourism could bring a breathe of fresh air into the town and put it on the map, nationally. However, there has to a level of respect should these routes continued to traversed for years to come. If you guys have ANY contact information or could show how not offend these guys, that'd be great. Thank you.

Short Version:

Climbers have discovered Guadalcazar, San Luis Potosi, Mexico. A small town which my grandma is from. However they are destroying the virgin territory and natural rocks around them. How can I get in contact with them/ communicate without offending to come to an agreement that would benefit both parties? Thanks. (Links to the article and video can be found above)

Here is a link to the reddit page where I asked my questions.

Dane Burke · · Seattle, Washington · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 85

Dude sounds legit so I'll assume damage beyond bolting is occurring. With that in mind...yeah, fucking up delicate cave formations that take thousands of years to form and are still growing and "living" is not cool.

Good luck to you...

Max Supertramp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 95

good approach to a tough situation. I wish you luck.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

I would write the climbing magazines and blogs

And also the outdoor media publications

Also contact 5.10 and adidas who owns them directly

If they are damaging things as you say, no company wants that publicity for the sake of a few climbs

I would video, photograph and document the damaged caused and post it up on the various sites

;)

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

What bearbreeder said. A good video detailing the damage (ideally with a shot of someone actually doing it) would help far more than anything else.

barnaclebob · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 0

Wow, a lot of those formations do not look strong enough to climb or put routes on.

Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45

Good suggestions so far.

Once this gets posted to social media, with accompanying footage, I hope it goes viral.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392

Well Ghostwolf, you have more than one problem.

From what I can see in the video and the article, Urs, et al, are putting in stainless steel bolts. In a warm limestone area that is full of stalactites, I expect those bolts will start breaking in 1 to 2 years. Then people will start getting hurt (or killed) and climbers will stop coming to your grandma's town. I've posted boatloads of information on MP, look it up.

Apparently I'm the only person to respond who's actually put up routes on stalactites. So yes, they can break, and a small, 10kg falling stalactite can kill you, your belayer or a bystander.

This 20kg stalactite broke when Vance knee-barred behind it, giving him 7 stitches in his arm (note bandage) and almost killing his belayer.

Some stalactites are hard and strong. They ring "ting" when you tap them with a hammer. There are soft weak ones too. They go "tump" when you tap them.

Then you get climbers who think they're in a gym and everything is guaranteed safe. They'll undercling the end of a baseball-bat-sized stalactite and pull hard. They don't even consider the leverage they have until it breaks off and spears them in the chest.

So you, and your grandma's town elders, have some decisions to make. Climbing, like just almost every human endeavor, damages/changes the environment where it happens. Think golf course, soccer pitch, quarry, etc.

If you ban climbing, the town loses the revenue from visiting climbers. If you allow climbing, the town loses (some of) the natural beauty of the area. A balance must be struck. I would suggest that some of the most beautiful areas that are still pristine be set aside and climbing NOT allowed there. Other areas can be developed for climbing.

I'd guess Access PanAm accesopanam.com may be able to help you make those decisions.

Manny Rangel · · PAYSON · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,788
vimeo.com/16385639

Guadalcazar has been developed for climbing on tufas/stalactites etc for quite a while. I climbed at one of the crags pictured. I looked at one of the huge sinkholes with some routes that was way long and steep. I was on my way to Petzl Roc Trip from the above link.

I watched the video and they are cleaning it as any other climber would. Still, it is tricky and will change the environment.

There are many local developers, including the landowner I stayed with, that have been busy prior to FiveTen's arrival.
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
Ryan-Nelson wrote:If you want climbers to come to your town, then things will continue to get broken until it's 100% developed.
Nice to know that we're such good care takers of the environment. As a user group, we don't sound that different than those yahoos scout leaders in Utah who knocked over of a hoodoo. Different motives perhaps, but the same result.

I hope you can find some resolution to your issue as well.
Ed Wright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 285

You definitely need to strike a balance in order to develop the eco-tourism while protecting certain areas.

Christian Ehlert can be reached at kaya-tyescala@hotmail.com or at
011 52 444 128 0599.

mark felber · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 41
Ryan-Nelson wrote:I do a lot of route development though never any involving stalactites, and breaking stuff is just part of the routine. It's a matter of safety for climbers and belayers. If you want climbers to come to your town, then things will continue to get broken until it's 100% developed. I hope you can find a suitable resolution. You should attempt to find the route developers for the climbing area, and discuss this issue with them. If you have no luck there, your next step would be contacting the access fund for further questions, or you can contact my organization anytime and we'll attempt to provide appropriate direction for you as well. nococlimbing.org/
With enough climbers thinking and talking the way you do, you just might find that the OP and the residents of Guadalcazar (and maybe a few other towns) don't want climbers to come to their town.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
mark felber wrote: With enough climbers thinking and talking the way you do, you just might find that the OP and the residents of Guadalcazar (and maybe a few other towns) don't want climbers to come to their town.
Exactly, and that is their choice, but when you put up tufa routes, shit is gonna break. No telling when. Some of it can be cleaned easily but I have seen a two ton tufa fall off a wall after fifteen years of climbing on it. It was fucking tragic.

A balance can be struck, but that won't stop the destruction of tufas, only banning climbing will.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

These guys might be able to help as well with some guidance. . .

accessfund.org/

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
John Byrnes wrote: What an infantile and ignorant attitude. You can't make an omelet without breaking the eggs and you can't make a sport route without cleaning off the loose and dangerous stuff. If you want a warm house in winter, a road to the crags, gas for the car, clothing, skis (I see you're in Frisco), ski lifts, aluminum climbing gear, nylon slings, sticky rubber, a computer and everything else you take for granted, then you gotta give something up. Humans are parasites. Unless you're a member of some other species (do tell!) you're as much to blame as anyone else. If you really feel strongly about the damage humans do to the earth then commit suicide. Hopefully you haven't had kids yet.
As an administrator, haven't you violated Guideline #1? How can expect others to adhere the sites guidelines if you don't do it yourself?
Wally · · Denver · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

Agreed. Obnoxious uncalled for comment by John.

Gh0stw0lf · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0

Whoa, guys. Thank you for the information that you all have posted and I will follow up on many of these leads. Already an editor at alpinist has contacted me regarding this thread looking to possibly write an article!

Anyways on to clarify a few things.

  • I understand there is no such thing as "no impact" climbing when it comes to limestone caves just because the anatomy of the human body and the oils we produce. However, I want to be sure on the technique that these guys are using to bolt/make routes (sorry for crappy terminology usage, I'm not a climber. One of you responded to these concerns and let me know what kind of bolts they were using and how they pose a danger. THAT is the perfect kind of information that I was looking for.
  • The official town stance is "Say no to rock climbing!". Some of the townspeople (including the ones with political power) have not bothered to do research and simply do not want climbers there messing up natural features. This is why I am here, I'm working alone with some connections to be able to make and EDUCATED decision on what to do. The most feasible way to go right now is to speak directly with the route maker(s) and come to an agreement on what should and shouldn't be climbed (including the methods of route development, where you guys come in!)
  • It's also worth noting that the people coming here are tourists from cities in Mexico and are well experienced climbers (I hope). One of the little known facts about Guadalcazar is used to be French/Spanish mining town during and after the revolution. After they claimed it was all mined (Which it wasn't since a Canadian company is now trying to buy the town to mine it all) they left everything pretty much abandoned in regards to mines. This means where these climbers are walking on have been known to structurally week and fall through into abandoned mines. A few cattle/townspeople have been lost this way. I want to warn anybody of those dangers as well.
  • Please don't flame each other in this section thread. I found that pretty unwarranted. However, its nice to know other people care about the land as much as I do. It was unsettling at first reading some comments that said just let the climbers "clear it out".
  • If anybody else has climbed in or around Guadalcazar please let me know! I've been trying to find more videos to share to show that climbers should be people we welcome and give you guys all generally a pretty good name.

Thanks and again, spread the word about this town.
Gh0stw0lf · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0
Fat Dad wrote: Nice to know that we're such good care takers of the environment. As a user group, we don't sound that different than those yahoos scout leaders in Utah who knocked over of a hoodoo. Different motives perhaps, but the same result. I hope you can find some resolution to your issue as well.
Thank you for your words. In regard to the original quote, please realize that this is a very small town where everybody knows who is coming in and out at all times. The police can be very aggressive and keep out and "visitors" they just don't like. I understand that people want safe and developed routes but unchecked "development" will harm the environment for the long run.

Aren't climbers supposed to be about preservation so more people can come and climb and enjoy the view?
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
"The police can be very aggressive and...."

That is why you don't find me in Mexico, been there done that.
Manny Rangel · · PAYSON · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,788

Climbers like variety and they like convenience. I didn't stay in the town and I forgot our host's name (he looked like Sylvester Stallone!)but he was definitely eager to develop more routes on his ranch. If you have the time, visit El Potrero Chico to see how climbers have impacted Hidalgo, Nuevo Leon.

The potential I saw was as great as Potrero Chico but more spread out. Even so, only the surface has been scratched (no pun intended).

In El Chonta they are replacing old bolts with glue-in bolts. That is the best way to protect a limestone cave. A young man was climbing near the start of a route in the lower cave and a bolt failed causing a fatal injury. That is when the bolts were replaced. Glad you are thinking ahead. If you have any bolting questions, my amigo Carlos Garcia (El Mac) from Mexico City, is very experienced and is one of the folks replacing bolts in El Chonta.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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