Belay accident with Trango Cinch
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This is way too involved an issue to address simply, here. I will summarize: |
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Kevin, |
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After 3 pages of conjecture and anecdotes, the only thing that's been clearly established is that the original poster used improper belay technique and dropped his climbing partner. |
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Any belay device used correctly will arrest a fall.Belay devices don't kill climbers , belayers do! Belaying is an underrrated climbing skill, sadly, and one I take great pride in attempting to perform with absolute perfection , I actually enjoy belaying a leader, I feel like as a belayer I am a very important part of a succesful ascent. |
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1. ELA said he dropped someone after 3 months of using the device and he still sees the dangerous misuses of the device printed in OFFICIAL manuals. How is a consumer suppose to know the correct or incorrect way to belay, and most only look closely at how it operates only AFTER and accident. He and his friends were lucky that no one was hurt, but what if someone had died? I don't see how Trango is not at least partially at fault for printing misinformation. |
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ELA wrote:I and many friends used the earliest Cinches, typically for 3 months, and then just as we felt confident in them, we DROPPED someone!What? You and MANY friends have dropped people? Good god. ELA wrote:Cinch Problem 1 = very position-sensitive, because with no spring, it can freely swivel and if you hold it BELOW the level of the harness, it can unweight the camming action - also, why it is so dangerous used as an ascender on a rope. Have you ever held a GriGri? You can freely move the rope through that too- both ways, until the cam is engaged. Any device will be "below the level of the harness" or level with the belay loop hanging by the biner when there is no tension on the rope- which there should not be until your climber falls, or unless you're feeding slack. ELA wrote:I cup it in my right hand, even or above the waist belay loop, thumb over the rope just out from the entry/brake side; leader/exit opening is above/closer to waist... I am always gently lifting the Cinch, so tension is against the waist clip-in biner, and unless I am actively feeding out rope, my thumb is initiating the braking action at all times. This is incorrect. From the instructions that came with your Cinch: "Do not hold the entire Cinch in your hand while belaying or you could defeat the braking mechanism, resulting in serious injury or death." Maybe you should read your instruction booklet instead of going on the Internet and spraying some long ass multi-step instruction pamphlet that is wrong- after you've mentioned that you and many friends have dropped people. KevinK wrote:What is all this "blame the victim" mentality with climbers?You fucked up. Plain and simple. You and your buddy ELA. This is why the device gets a bad reputation. Blame the victim? The victim was the climber. You are to blame. Pretty cut and dried. |
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I have a Cinch in a box with my Beta tapes. Damn progress! |
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The Cinch did not lock because you were holding the rope firmly above the device, reducing load on the locking mechanism. Blame the Cinch all you want, but the same result would likely have happened with a GriGri, Sum, or any other "ASSISTED braking" device. Unfortunately, it doesn't really sound like you've learned much from your very lucky accident--classic example of why one must be exceedingly careful with who they choose to partner with. And above all, keep control of the brake strand and catch the fall with your brake hand no matter which device you use... even with the left hand error you made, you could have still caught the fall with your right hand more quickly if you had the brake strand under control. |
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Dustin Stephens wrote:but the same result would likely have happened with a GriGri...No sorry you're wrong, it wouldn't have happened with a grigri. |
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I wish you were right about that. Unfortunately, there have been literally dozens of GriGri belay accidents over the last few years in the Red because of this exact error. |
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Is there any way you can confirm that information? I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but it seems we would have heard about it somehow if people were being dropped like hotcakes at the Red. At least half of those I would think would result in some sort of injury that would generate a report. No? |
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Get in touch with Muir Valley people, they might be willing to release information. There was a fatality at the Dark Side a few years back from GriGri user error. Belaying accidents are very common here on a variety of different devices. Probably some reports made it to AAJ accidents, but most don't bother for a variety of reasons. Fortunately 2013 was a better year than most in this regard. I actually avoid certain crags now to lessen the probability of having to spend the day helping with another evac. There are hordes of bad belayers (in addition to anchor-cleaning errors) in the peak season. No doubt a Cinch is trickier and perhaps more error-prone than other devices, but still it is not accurate to claim it's the fault of the device in this case. |
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Dustin Stephens wrote:I wish you were right about that. Unfortunately, there have been literally dozens of GriGri belay accidents over the last few years in the Red because of this exact error.because they were holding their brake hand above the device? Not true. There may have been errors because they used their guide hand to break and thus prevent the cam, sure that's blatant user error. As long as you are holding the grigri with your brake hand only, no matter the position, it will never replicate a failure like the cinch. |
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I was climbing with a stranger at the gym on my GriGri 2, which he wanted to try. He dropped me to the deck. What happened? He grabbed the sharp end of the rope with his left hand, slowing down the fall, preventing the GriGri from engaging, and burning his feed hand and brake hand in the process. There is your example. I've been using GriGris since the early 90s, and don't mind using the Cinch BTW. |
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Usage nerd alert: |
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This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
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NICE! |
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Dustin Stephens wrote: There was a fatality at the Dark Side a few years back from GriGri user error.That was a Cinch error. The reports also mention the device was loaded correctly and in good working order. This was probably THE incident that woke the world up about the Cinch. I don't know if it's laughable or sickening that you've turned the facts around because of your ignorance. |
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I wonder why it "woke everyone up" when it was belayer error, not device failure. |
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It certainly didn't wake up the perpetually asleep, such as yourself. It woke up a more intelligent and analytic core that realizes that there is nothing in that accident that couldn't happen to them. |