BD X4, ongoing real-world review (will update over time)

You are blurring the issue a bit. The "failures" reported were on inspection, not in use and nearly all climbing gear "fails" this way.

Jim Titt wrote:You are blurring the issue a bit. The "failures" reported were on inspection, not in use and nearly all climbing gear "fails" this way.

one of the incidents was during an actual fall ... the cable snapped

BMC

the BMC on the other incident found that ...

Both devices inspected both failed at the point where the flexible stem enters the rigid stem (Circled in red in figures 2 & 3). Where the flexible stem and rigid stem meet the cable is forced to bend around a very small radius formed by the outer edge of the rigid stem. This increases the bending stress in the cable at this location. Repeated bending i.e. repeated bending stress accelerates fatigue and eventual failure in cables (See figure 7).

thebmc.co.uk/have-you-check…

its interesting they havent had any dual stems reportedly fail this way ...

of course they say ...

Although there have previously been examples of similar camming device failure, these failures are by no means commonly reported to the BMC. Other cases of stem failure that have been investigated, involved devices from a range of manufacturers, though it is important to state that they have each involved devices with a single flexible stem.

i use flexible cams myself ... and keep on using em ... its simply something to keep an eye on ...

just like offset nuts whose wires get kinked to hell an break sooner if your partner doesnt clean em with a tool ... but yanks em out

anything that kinks sharply in the same place over and over again bear watching IMO ...

the problem is that you almost never hear about it as an inspection point on these intraweb forums, MP included ...

in fact until the BMC report came out i dont think ive ever hear anyone discuss it as part of their cam inspection on MP

;)

What people discuss on MP merely tells us something about forums. The concern over broken wires in climbing gear have been around for a good 40 years at least and is common knowledge. The need for regular inspection is in the instructions for most gear and for example for my ancient WC rocks (which also cover their cams):-
WARNING: If one or more wire filaments in the flexible wire sling is found to be broken, this product should be withdrawn from use immediately.
One or more broken filaments indicate that the wire sling is showing signs of fatigue failure caused by flexing. Total failure of the wire sling will eventually result from further flexing in use. Your life depends on the immediate withdrawal use of this product as total failure will occur dependant on individual usage which cannot be predicted after this warning sign appears. If in doubt or if you require further advice please contact Wild Country Ltd.

The concern for the BMC Technical Commitee (of which I am incidentally a member) was two-fold. Firstly that climbers are clearly not inspecting their equipment properly even it was clearly heavily used (or even abused) and secondly that manufacturers were making it impossible to check by covering the wire completely or at least the area most likely to fail. All but two of the cams on my rack have plastic covering the weak point which makes inspection impossible, that the manufacturers are still doing this tells you something I guess!

Lol Ray, dont go down this path, it gets ugly, real ugly.

Now go take 25 whips, come back and we'll talk OK?

MJMobes wrote:Lol Ray, dont go down this path, it gets ugly, real ugly. Now go take 25 whips, come back and we'll talk OK?

I probably won't report those whips so you have no idea if my cams failed.

Bearbreeder taking yet another opportunity to announce that he falls on gear. SHOCKED. Your spray is getting less subtle dude. Settle down. You don't have to throw a pamphlet of technical information and statistics at every comment. I'm starting to wonder if you have an opinion that doesn't involve taking pictures of your technical prowess and wealth of information, or some European statistic sheet. Maybe tell your friends to pat you on the back once in a while or something.

Disagree. Sure, BB has a little bit of spray in his posts, but the tech info he post is useful. I can deal with him rubbing his ego between the lines as long as the rest of the content is good.

I agree. He does know his shit, but sometimes it's verbose and spray-infused, thus annoying.

don'tchuffonme wrote:Bearbreeder taking yet another opportunity to announce that he falls on gear. SHOCKED. Your spray is getting less subtle dude. Settle down. You don't have to throw a pamphlet of technical information and statistics at every comment. I'm starting to wonder if you have an opinion that doesn't involve taking pictures of your technical prowess and wealth of information, or some European statistic sheet. Maybe tell your friends to pat you on the back once in a while or something.

from the guy who had to set up an account in jan 2014 ... what happened to your old account little one? =P

people on MP will go on and on ... and scream about "OMG OMG OMG" for a million pages unless you present them with FACTS

the best way to do this is to either present a real life example and picture ... or some technical documentation

if you get annoyed, like i really care mr chuffer

as long as the people who are interested clearly understand that repeated flexing of the cable at a particular spot can cause the failure of the wire

ive said it before ... its not something ive heard people say to check as part of the "cam check list" on the intraweb

in fact ive seen some climbers see a small broken strand on nuts, snip it off and say "its all good"

we all know climbers are cheap bastards

it was obviously a problem enough for the BMC to put out a notice for people to inspect their cams

as to whether it will affect the X4s ... who knows, youll find out after years of hard use .... but if you dont know about potential issues, you may never know till its too late

;)

don'tchuffonme wrote:Bearbreeder taking yet another opportunity to announce that he falls on gear. SHOCKED. Your spray is getting less subtle dude. Settle down. You don't have to throw a pamphlet of technical information and statistics at every comment. I'm starting to wonder if you have an opinion that doesn't involve taking pictures of your technical prowess and wealth of information, or some European statistic sheet. Maybe tell your friends to pat you on the back once in a while or something.

I disagree, his ability to cut and paste while adding his own inane commentary and stale pictures is second to none. #asianprincess #511trad #fallongear #lifetimewarranty #recallnotice #selfrescue

bearbreeder wrote: ... and scream about "OMG OMG OMG" for a million pages unless you present them with FACTS

UNREPORTED FACTS!!!!!!11!!!!111!

Ray Pinpillage wrote: I disagree, his ability to cut and paste while adding his own inane commentary and stale pictures is second to none. #asianprincess #511trad #fallongear #lifetimewarranty #recallnotice #selfrescue

your ability to flame and to be an intraweb tofu guy is absolutely stellar little one

LOL

#mustflame #attackdawg #woofwoofwoof

;)

For what it's worth, I've had several different brands do this exact same thing. An older tech-friend (with the plastic cable protector) just broke in half one day while I was fiddling with it. Apparently the stiff "protector" over the cable created a stem that didn't flex much, except at the joint. I've had a few other units do a similar thing, but none so dramatically. I don't know about the quality control of the above pictured cam, but it seems directly correlated to the stiffness of the cable stem. And I know those cams have stiffer cables.

The most durable units I've used thus far are the BD C4 and X4's. The stems of my aliens (CCH) always held up well too.

You guys are funny. Wanna put on some lycra and go grab a Fresca?

don'tchuffonme wrote:You guys are funny. Wanna put on some lycra and go grab a Fresca?

im off to actual go do some easy climbing outside in a bit ...

something you should try sometime instead of starting new accounts and chuffing on the intrawebs

but dont worry ill think you you chuffing on MP the new few days while i take advantage of this sunny weather around squamish

or maybe not

LOL

;)

bearbreeder wrote:ill think you you

Well thanks! Awfully thoughtful. I'll ummm... think you you too. I think?

Jim Titt wrote:What people discuss on MP merely tells us something about forums. The concern over broken wires in climbing gear have been around for a good 40 years at least and is common knowledge. The need for regular inspection is in the instructions for most gear and for example for my ancient WC rocks (which also cover their cams):- WARNING: If one or more wire filaments in the flexible wire sling is found to be broken, this product should be withdrawn from use immediately. One or more broken filaments indicate that the wire sling is showing signs of fatigue failure caused by flexing. Total failure of the wire sling will eventually result from further flexing in use. Your life depends on the immediate withdrawal use of this product as total failure will occur dependant on individual usage which cannot be predicted after this warning sign appears. If in doubt or if you require further advice please contact Wild Country Ltd. The concern for the BMC Technical Commitee (of which I am incidentally a member) was two-fold. Firstly that climbers are clearly not inspecting their equipment properly even it was clearly heavily used (or even abused) and secondly that manufacturers were making it impossible to check by covering the wire completely or at least the area most likely to fail. All but two of the cams on my rack have plastic covering the weak point which makes inspection impossible, that the manufacturers are still doing this tells you something I guess!

How do you suggest we inspect C4s & dragons?

MorganH wrote: How do you suggest we inspect C4s & dragons?

Send them back to the manufacturers for inspection?

for the record, i do not send 5.14c/d x, even on the internet, I like bearbreeders info, I understand why he is concerned, with the long jacket on the axle boss of the X 4's. However, they can be visually inspected...

just to be safe I am buying all the rigid stems in the world getting rid of all my spectra and only extending placements by chaining non-lockers...

the failures that we are talking about are few... but I have totally racked up with friends, whose Friends had a few broken cable wires...now, that seems like less of a good Idea. any way chuff on chuff forward puff out your chest scream at your keyboard and vote for the space lizard good night, i am going rock climbing

VaGenius wrote:Chuffleboard, you're not half bad. Too bad you're me, eh?

Let's not start cupping each other's ballsacks just yet, scooter. It's not even noon.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:for the record, i do not send 5.14c/d x, even on the internet, I like bearbreeders info, I understand why he is concerned, with the long jacket on the axle boss of the X 4's. However, they can be visually inspected... just to be safe I am buying all the rigid stems in the world getting rid of all my spectra and only extending placements by chaining non-lockers... the failures that we are talking about are few... but I have totally racked up with friends, whose Friends had a few broken cable wires...now, that seems like less of a good Idea. any way chuff on chuff forward puff out your chest scream at your keyboard and vote for the space lizard good night, i am going rock climbing

That isn't Bearbreeder's info, he's simply parroting what was already on the internet. Four broken cams is statistically irrelevant and the implication that since X4's stay bent a little somehow correlates to four failed cams in the UK is fairly stupid.

With that said, all gear should be inspected. frayed slings and cables with broken wires should be retired. That applies to all gear including cams.