Lost My Lead Head

Warbonnet
Remember, both tools are in solid with strong tethers. Normally when placing a screw your non-hang tool is useless for protecting you. There is about two inches of slack to be shock loaded. This is nothing new - any older ice climbing book will talk about it as an option for newer leaders.
I would assume leashes are better on the pump - although I must admit I haven't bothered trying leashless. You can still get plenty pumped on steep ice with leashes.
The brain is a funny thing - in this case I believe you are safer with strong tethers (although more of a hassle) but when you clip a piece of manky psychological pro rock climbing it's amazing how you can be more relaxed even though you aren't really safer. In the ice case the brain says I would rather shock load two inches onto two solid planted ice axes (I'm sure that would be an alpine belay for some)than take a 25 foot fall.
You could almost argue that you have set up a temporary non-weighted belay while placing that screw.

I can't find it, but there is big article on tethers and what they are designed to do, whether the newer types or the good ol' tie up some webbing type. Either way, they should not be used as a weighted, or loaded device. Basically to fall on one creates a highly significant fall factor and can just rip out the tool. Or, even break it.

I too have had the lead mind melt. I just backed off, and sort of re-established my climbing "chops" so to speak. I find my lead head is DIRECTLY related to how much I can get out there and train any given year. A few years ago I felt like I was invincible, the last couple ( I'm a grandpa now) my mind has changed and risk management has taken a little different turn. I don't get out quite as much, especially on the steep stuff, so my skills are not quite as honed as they have been. In terms of actually going through with the lead, I tend to try to stay calm and keep moving through really tough sections eyeballing a rest spot or a spot where things back off. Nothing better than a Hail-Mary hook to get secure. Nothing worse than marginal placements in funky ice on the sharp end.

Keep at it, don't stress too much (makes it worse) and don't put too much pressure on yourself. I love to take the sharp end, but if I don't have it on any given day, so what? Set up a TR, run some laps, and have fun... No pressure.

Maybe we're talking semantics (leashes v. tethers).

Here's BD's blurb on their Spinner Leash, including lots of warning info....not the typical "be warned" but "WARNING -- THIS IS NOT A WEIGHT BEARING ITEM".

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Lou, if you are using the word "tethers" in a general sense, then I agree that you could daisy chain it up, however, it is certain that one would end up with a lot of material flopping and hanging around; probably more trouble than it's worth and might even be problematic.

As you know, a cam-locking tether (not a "leash") has been popular in Europe but I don't think I've ever seen one here.....you probably have.....maybe that's what you are referring to?

For me, depending on the type of ice, a 2" shock load (say in very brittle ice; not "dinner plate" but "dining room table-type" splintering ice) would make me want to go to church and that ain't happening. Or 2" in soft, crappy ice.

Re: the non-weight bearing tool (say the right one that's driven in the ice) not being of use for pro, there are ways to use it and quickly; simply reach down and pull up X ft of rope (one pull....not 10 feet) and flip it under the bottom of the handle (passive pro). Some people keep a fifi hook girth hitched to the front of the harness and slip that puppy into the BOTOM hole of the non-weight bearing tool (never the head) and hang on that (or at least partially weight it if sketched). That works, as long as the tool isn't twisted out of alignment. Some say it's OK to flip the rope over the ice tool head, however, most are sharp these days and the risk of cutting it might be of concern if, say, the belayer slipped & put force on the rope. I can't see that happening but weirder things have.

Craig Leubben's book "How to Climb Ice" has good examples of how to take advantage of that situation.

Gosh, I can relate. Lately I've been doing better. I've honestly never led anything over grade 4 though. And it usually always feels hard. Funny that I follow grade 5 without ever falling, but when on lead...
I try to think positively. Try to remember to have fun, that having fun is why I'm out there.
Keep climbing.
Good luck. Thanks for the honesty and opening up. I think this is way more of a common thing then what we usually read about:
"I started climbing ice last month and lead 5...blah blah blah"
Whatever.

Consider putting in screws on top rope as well. I'm not leading ice yet, but recognize the added challenge as the static balance seems somewhat hard to find.

I think we've worked that tether subject thoroughly so maybe this belongs elsewhere but my views on shock loading are a little different.
Situations don't want to shock load:
Don't want to connect directly from harness into skinny non-stretch cordalette. Instead - tie into coradelatte with rope. Agreed.

Same as above for sole tie in to belay shouldn't be daisy chain. Need more cushion than daisy chain gives.

An area I have often violated the shock load principle is toproping on sharp or loose rock such as at Palisade Head in Minnesota. I would much rather use a static rope. You use a slingshot belay(belayer on top) from above and I think you are much safer than with a dynamic rope. No large shock forces generated if you use fairly tight belay. The belayer gets pulled into the anchor, helping dissipate the forces.

Also - if you read through the aid climbing sequence (when you use daisy chains) espoused in some books about when to clip the rope vs. daisy chain you are putting yourself in shock load danger all the time with every sequence of placements. Sometimes guys do fall directly onto their last aid piece with a daisy chain and get hurt but it's rare.

I guess I am saying shock loading risk like everything else in climbing is a judgement call.
As noted - there are multiple ways to quiet leader fear in ice climbing while placing a screw, but shock loading a short distance onto strong tethers in ice wouldn't be a fear for me. It would only happen if you were falling anyway.

Tethers won't save you Jack Roberts had them on Bridalveil when he fell neither will leashes you have to be able to hang on and control your thoughts otherwise you are courting disaster...

Idk we used to attach a Fifi hook to the tool , thread the webbing through the head and tape the webbing down on one side of the shaft so the hook part is facing you when you tape everything down make sure you run the tape all the way until only the hook is showing so you will be taping the top half of the hook around the shaft of the tool as well . Use electrical tape and don't skimp unless you want the hook to shift ( Not very comforting ) Ill find a picture n post it .but any smart person will get the gist I think.

Everything went like this : you reached a place where you want to place a screw , planted that axe really well just above your head and called for slack , then looped the rope over the FIFI hook n called take . I've hung on said setup with no problems what so ever . I mean i literaly tried to get the tool to pop in every concievable way and unless your jumping up it dosnt come out unless you remove the tool in the normal fashion or you get so aggressive you break the ice or the pick . . ( dont believe me , give it a shot on tr sometime , ive made several believers )

But basically it's a cover ur ass as you place a screw trick . I always liked this set up over the clipping into the spike on your tool trick , I never really trusted that as it put way more outward force on the placement then I liked ESP if you leaned back as opposed to the fifi hook . And clipping a fifi into the spike was about as comforting as testing a 0 head halfway up a string of head placements.

This helped me through the pump on many many multi pitch ice climbs ,it was/ is great for a rest as well . so much so that until I really started climbing a lot of ice this fifi setup was a constant fixture on my right tool .

I think everyone else has given great info to ya so ill leave that alone , this is just another trick to try if your so inclined .
Cheers

Lou Hibbard wrote: I guess I am saying shock loading risk like everything else in climbing is a judgement call. As noted - there are multiple ways to quiet leader fear in ice climbing while placing a screw, but shock loading a short distance onto strong tethers in ice wouldn't be a fear for me.

Lou, I was with you all the way until your last sentence but maybe it's semantics. When I hear "tethers" I'm not sure people confuse "leashes" (as in BD's Spinners or Camp/Cassin's X-Gyros -- true tethers -- non-load bearing) or load-bearing leashes such as those designed to be attached to the tool (and removed if necessary.

At any rate, I agree.....we've beaten it to death. I don't like to shock load anything in ice climbing but that's just my thing.

BD's daisy clip warning is always worth watching. (I never use daisies anymore and for a lot of reasons; the big wall days are mostly behind me):

youtube.com/watch?v=Q0J9dB0…

RobC2 wrote:Tethers won't save you Jack Roberts had them on Bridalveil when he fell neither will leashes you have to be able to hang on and control your thoughts otherwise you are courting disaster...

When my cousin Jack Roberts fell on Bridalveil (he had soloed it many times before), he never did nor would he ever have thought "tethers" (in the BD/Cassin term) would do anything other than keep him from losing a tool if he dropped one or it blew. That is what they are designed for......a "bungy cord" with which you can pull your dropped tool up (and secondarily, not drop one down on your unsuspecting partner(s).

I won't make this note about Jack other than to say his death & events leading up to it are complex and not entirely understood or agreed. If anyone courted disaster but controlled his thoughts, it was Jack. And a million others....like all of us. "Disaster" and "control" are subjective are they not?

From "Winter Climbing" by Neil Gresham and Ian Parnell (Rockfax.com). One of the best ice climbing books you can buy (at the same time decipher "British English").

"Rope Flick Method"

"Placing screws on steep ice can feel frightening and precarious if you're not used to it. A great method to increase confidence is to flick one of your ropes over the leash-less "grip hook' on the base of your free tool. This will serve to protect you as you place the screw. Take care that the tool is well seated or it may be dislodged when removing the rope. The grip-hooks are rarely approved by manufacturers for withstanding high loads, but they may be sufficient to arrest a small slip. The old method was to flick the rope over the head of the axe but the risk of the rope sliding on top of the sharp blade ought to be enough to put most people off".

Note: this can also be done with leashed tools as long as the leash is clipped off...duh.

Haha.... I'm a pro at this "rope flick method!" I came up with it on my own in a tired moment early this season. I had climbed and climbed looking for better ice to take a screw and get some rest... The ice wasn't getting any better and I needed to rest and it made sense! Been using it since.

.. I had a feeling I wasn't the only one getting sketched out at times!

+1 for rock warriors way

So here is a question... The rope flick is marginal at best IMO. If one is going to go the A0 route (way better form than falling btw) why not just clip the pommel or handle hole? I've done this on desperate situations a few times and it is IMO the best of all worlds. Dunno, read it somewhere... I try not to go this route, most from a time saving perspective, every second counts when getting pumped. But, it's better than a fall, every time.

Just Solo wrote:.. why not just clip the pommel or handle hole? .

I think clipping the hole or pommel takes more time at either end, i.e., find the 'biner or draw, clip it quick & clean (and that's assuming the draw is attached to the harness and not a clipper, right? Clipping the hole/pommel may have better 'physics' insofar as keeping the bottom of the tool against the ice but if the free tool is set hard enough with the intention of the rope flick, I think you're fine. I've seen others try this in say dinner plate ice and think they need to pry the tool from the ice in order to flick the rope underneath it. OOoppsss......

Has anyone seen a climber take a flying lesson from a rope flick that went bad? I haven't.

I don't use a Fifi on ice but do on big walls. But I know plenty of guides/instructors who straight away girth hitch a Fifi in the center of the harness of their clients & explain how its used. In fact, I know a few guides who use & keep their own.....makes all this go even quicker.

Much easier said than done but this can take just a bit of energy, perhaps enough to climb to a better spot...."Climb out of danger". But I've been paralyzed on the danger spot myself enough times to know that it isn't that easy. But so much territory can be gained by a few swings of the tool ..... unlike rock climbing that may require many moves to cover the same distance.....If I can keep my cool long enough, I can usually avoid the messing around "in the rope flick zone" and cruise. i think it feeds on itself.....if you can keep pushing, when it's all over, one can think to themselves, "hey, I did it". (But avoid the super whipper or any whipper at all).

So easy to lay in bed now and espouse such sage drivel when I'm not leading a WI 5, overhung and getting worse.

(Just Solo.....we didn't even talk about those women being on HEMP ropes....wonder what they'd think about this risk assessment? With those Alpenstocks they'd take three swings and be up far enough where we'd be putting in a screw).

Eli, good for you to have figured the rope flick trick on your own.

Warbonnet wrote: I think clipping the hole or pommel takes more time at either end, i.e., find the 'biner or draw, clip it quick & clean (and that's assuming the draw is attached to the harness and not a clipper, right? Clipping the hole/pommel may have better 'physics' insofar as keeping the bottom of the tool against the ice but if the free tool is set hard enough with the intention of the rope flick, I think you're fine. I've seen others try this in say dinner plate ice and think they need to pry the tool from the ice in order to flick the rope underneath it. OOoppsss...... Has anyone seen a climber take a flying lesson from a rope flick that went bad? I haven't. I don't use a Fifi on ice but do on big walls. But I know plenty of guides/instructors who straight away girth hitch a Fifi in the center of the harness of their clients & explain how its used. In fact, I know a few guides who use & keep their own.....makes all this go even quicker. Much easier said than done but this can take just a bit of energy, perhaps enough to climb to a better spot...."Climb out of danger". But I've been paralyzed on the danger spot myself enough times to know that it isn't that easy. But so much territory can be gained by a few swings of the tool ..... unlike rock climbing that may require many moves to cover the same distance.....If I can keep my cool long enough, I can usually avoid the messing around "in the rope flick zone" and cruise. i think it feeds on itself.....if you can keep pushing, when it's all over, one can think to themselves, "hey, I did it". (But avoid the super whipper or any whipper at all). So easy to lay in bed now and espouse such sage drivel when I'm not leading a WI 5, overhung and getting worse. (Just Solo.....we didn't even talk about those women being on HEMP ropes....wonder what they'd think about this risk assessment? With those Alpenstocks they'd take three swings and be up far enough where we'd be putting in a screw). Eli, good for you to have figured the rope flick trick on your own.

Ya, that's the reason I seldom use that clip method. I usually just tighten up the sack and make the few moves to relative safety. I like the rope flick idea, might just need to try that next time out if I'm gripped... (usually!!)

Ya, hemp ropes... DUDE!!!

Dear Eli,
This is what works for me, and it might for you too:

I'll go to ice climbs without a rope and talk myself through a climb. Get 3 feet up, am I solid? can I squat down and rest?,everything cool? if yes, down climb. Get back on the ice, this time get up to 6 feet, ask the same questions, feel good? down climb again. This time get up to 9 feet or higher...same process.

I was once told by Markus Beck of Alpine World Ascents, that "your tools are your belay", after climbing ice for ten years I couldn't agree more. Leading is pretty much soloing, the screws do add some (maybe false?) sense of security. At all times you should feel like you are in control of the situation. If not, just back away and come back when you do feel that way.

Some may find this unsafe or stupid, but like I said it works for me, and everyone's different.

Ali Jaffri wrote: I'll go to ice climbs without a rope and talk myself through a climb. Get 3 feet up, am I solid? can I squat down and rest?,everything cool? if yes, down climb. Get back on the ice, this time get up to 6 feet, ask the same questions, feel good? down climb again. This time get up to 9 feet or higher...same process.

I recommend taking it a step further when barely off the deck: don't just climb up, say monkey style, but vary it as much as possible. If you go up and down, quickly you will create steps; can't learn much from them....might as well add guardrail. Traverse....do it several different ways, i.e. step through, step back and down, cross tools, reach as far as you can....impossibly high (sticks, not high from the ground) but still stick it....see if you can hang on it. Do hip scums, build V-threads. Do toboggan runs, climb with only your crampons but no ice tools, ice tools but no crampons. One ice tool & two boots, two tools & one boot. Climb naked. Make a mess of everything.....try everything....be a kid and DON'T give a damn about anybody thinking you're weird. Ice climbers are weird anyway so you've already, by default, passed that test. The point Ali is making is go crazy on the stuff that's close to the ground. Nothing is sacred. Practice with every piece of equipment you have, stretch it to its limit then push it even further.

Go when the weather is at its worse, even if it's raining. (One serious caveat here; after playing for hours doing this stuff, depending on the type of snow, you might be creating a "landing pad" such that it can twist your ankle even should you fall 2-3 feet. Take care of that with a small avalanche shovel (or, when I take my clients out, a couple of good, flat garden spades. Even it out as much as possible and if you aren't a shovel kinda guy, stomp on it a bit to flatten it, obviating a silly but bummer ankle twist. Makles sense?

As I've admonished (apologies) before in this string, I am NOT a proponent of placing screws on top rope by one who is trying to overcome steep ice head setback. Top ropping does nothing to overcome this; your brain knows it's still on a top rope. Placing screws isn't a problem he sez; it's the "verticality, maybe the pump, maybe all of the above." He needs to learn to relax at that very important steep point and having goofed around with all the tools imaginable at the bottom frees one up from the rigidity of what they can do when the steepening begins. Be a kid, because that will help you "man up" when the going gets steep.

He'll do it. Post up your progress. We're all interested on your progress; it will help us too.

In closing but somewhat related, when I place a screw (say a stubbie or even a Specter) and I am certain it is sketchy, I simply call it a "placebo", knowing that it wouldn't hold a bugger if it fell from my nose. But actually saying to myself, "self, you just placed a placebo.....time to move to better terrain" gives me an odd sense of control; 'hey, it has a name......it's a PLACEBO'......(that it wouldn't do crap in a fall is irrelevant). Placebo on.

+1 for Warbonnet

Thanks Ali but you're the one who got me going on my note, which was a follow-up to yours, so +1 for you as well!