The Sliding X

I was taught the sliding x when I started climbing, and have just never questioned it. If on bolted anchors, use a runner for it, if using trad pro, typically set one with a straight runner and do the x on the other 2 pro as a way of equalizing it all out to the first runner length, even figured out a way to rig this with a cordelette. Someone saw me do this a few months ago, and gave me a quite the scolding about how unsafe that is, what if lose a piece of pro? Going to shock load the rest and blow the rest of the pro, and blah blah blah. Now keep in mind when I build these, I do incorporate overhand knots towards the master point, so as to lessen the shock load should it arise. Just looking for other opinions out there on the subject.

safeclimbing.org/education/…

When there is an option to avoid shock and increase redundancy, take it.

Personally, for top roping anchors, especially on bolts, I'll build an anchor with separated limiter knots (i.e. self equalizing incase the rope changes lines) but for single use anchors, anchors on gear, and anchors that I'm belaying from (top belay), I just pre equalize the pieces and throw in a big knot for a master point. It cleans up the anchor station (MP and shelves for clipping) it's simpler and faster and has essentially zero shock loading potential. Plus if you're belaying from it you can keep a good eye on it. That said, most of what I've read says that the strength of any individual placement is far more important than how you connect them, so as long as your gear is good you should be hunky dory.

Definitely not using a sliding-x with a single runner on two bolts.

For a three-piece cordellete I always equalize two of the anchors on a sling, but I'll add overhand knots.

The sling loop being open is more of a concern than shock loading.

Michael C wrote:Definitely not using a sliding-x with a single runner on two bolts.

Bingo. What's more redundant and "non-shock-loading" than two opposed quickdraws, besides the average n00b setup of alpine draws with lockers on both ends? Nothing. Why anyone would use a sliding X on two bolts is beyond me. Bomber placements and redundancy before "equalization". Equalizing two bomber bolts is the epitome of overkill.

don'tchuffonme wrote: Why anyone would use a sliding X on two bolts is beyond me.

If you're planning on climbing several lines from the same TR anchor with a large group it's nice to have the confidence of a couple lockers and some equalization. But yes, like most things in climbing it's overly redundant.

Good points John and solid logic. What gets me is when people don't use logic. What I am referring to are those that are "scared" to TR off two opposed draws. I've seen people that demand lockers on TR anchors, but are cool with taking a whip on one draw on the second bolt up.

don'tchuffonme wrote:Good points John and solid logic. What gets me is when people don't use logic. What I am referring to are those that are "scared" to TR off two opposed draws. I've seen people that demand lockers on TR anchors, but are cool with taking a whip on one draw on the second bolt up.

On that note, why not use an x on two bolted anchors? Advantages is have movement and can follow the line better, if doing a multi pitch one has more movement to get away from rockfall at hanging belay stations, and if one loses an anchor, yes there would be some shock load, but it will be less than that 8 or 10 foot whipper that most of us have taken on a single bolt.

The term "shock loading" is so dramatic, and often misused and misunderstood.

In your example how long is the sling used for the sliding x? If it is a 24in sewn sling, than the "drop" distance in the event of failure of one of the sliding x's pieces will only be about 12". I did the math in another thread a while back. It is a small increase in load compared to the original load. And it is partially reduced by the "clutch effect". Additionally, use of a dynamic rope further mitigates the alleged "shock load".

In the end, good load distribution is quite valuable and will reduce the likely hood of gear failure in the first place. But, limiting extension is valuable too.

Final answer: As usual, it depends. The sliding x should remain a tool in you bag of tricks for certain situations.

One of my climbing partners showed me a single sling on bolts option that sort of resembles a sliding-x.

Take a long sling, and put an overhand knot in the middle. Biners go through both loops.

I think it was shown recently in "Climbing" magazine. You know how they have the last couple pages in green or yellow, featuring technical tips?

John Marsella wrote: I also will use a pre-tied sliding-x with individual leg-limiter knots on a nylon sewn sling for TR sessions. It's a little less efficient and overkill, but I like it for the following reasons: * saves my "nice" carabiners from a sometimes sandy/gritty rope rubbing over it, sometimes weighted, for half an hour at a time. *inspires confidence, especially in newer climbers. *thicker carabiners give a nice wide, round area for the rope to be loaded over in a "fall."

If you are going to go through the trouble of having a pretied TR anchor why not just use a quad?

Generally I wouldn't use a sliding x on a multipitch because it's a waste of time, especially on trad. If you're at the anchor you can clearly see if something starts to go awry. The anchor described by Michael C sounds like a standard multipoint anchor that I use 90% of the time.

youtube.com/watch?v=zDXvI18…

Greg D wrote:The term "shock loading" is so dramatic, and often misused and misunderstood. In your example how long is the sling used for the sliding x? If it is a 24in sewn sling, than the "drop" distance in the event of failure of one of the sliding x's pieces will only be about 12". I did the math in another thread a while back. It is a small increase in load compared to the original load. And it is partially reduced by the "clutch effect". Additionally, use of a dynamic rope further mitigates the alleged "shock load". In the end, good load distribution is quite valuable and will reduce the likely hood of gear failure in the first place. But, limiting extension is valuable too. Final answer: As usual, it depends. The sliding x should remain a tool in you bag of tricks for certain situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrgadjo9niY

This may be on a 120cm sling and not a 60, the loads are very similar. Im pretty sure that during a shock load set up, 14.9kn and higher are not a "small increase in load". the dynamic rock is not going to lessen the impact you are experiencing is you are clipped directly to the anchor. That being said, in certain circumstances i do use a sliding x. But I always use a 120 for my anchor. or the rope itself. for TR setups, two draws.

If you're doing multi with bolted anchors, what is easier and uses less gear than a sliding X? (yes if you have a crazy long sling, feel free to knot a master point)

How big has the pile of bodies gotten that were done in by non-equalized and/or shock loaded anchors?

John Marsella wrote: yes, the rope. I do that sometimes, too.

Touche - I will do that if swapping leads for sure.

a sliding X works just fine for multi pitch with solid bolted anchors ... in fact almost anything will work

but the sliding X takes a smaller amount of sling material, is ridiculously fast to setup ... and most importantly your second aint going to fiddle with it trying to untie knots that have been weighted for when you want to move fast

now on gear its perhaps not the best idea ...

but dont take my word for it ... heres john longs climbing anchors 3rd ed

personally my favorite 2 bolt anchor setup is simply a clove hitch on a sling between the two bolts ... which is redundant, fast, and easy to untie

for TR i generally used a tied off sling ... but im absolutely fine with someone using a sliding X on two bolts... providing its not rubbing against any edges

for the OP ... if you incorporate a sliding X on 2 points of a 3+ point gear anchor ... this is shown by craig luebben in rock climbing anchors and quite a few other sources ... theres quite a few "climbers" out there who will tell you how "unsafe" your perfectly fine anchors are

i predict like all other anchor threads this will devolve in a "YER GONNA DIE IF YOU DONT ANCHOR AS I TELL U ON DA INTRAWEBS"

;)

This subject reminds of the first time I saw a sliding X. I asked the guide about the danger of shock loading and what ifs. I'll never forget his reply... He said don't place shitty gear and you won't have to worry about shock loads! This whole weekend is about trad leading, about placing good gear and doing things efficient. Why would you place good gear the whole pitch and then build some half ass anchor?

I tell ya, that guy kinda scared me with his stern personality but was the best person to teach placing gear and self rescue.

I guess my point is if you place solid gear you don't have to worry about shockloading..

bearbreeder wrote:if you incorporate a sliding X on 2 points of a 3+ point gear anchor

In my opinion, THIS is the best place for a sliding-x.

I climbed with a guy in a climbing club once who loved the sliding x and his sling he used was found on a wall.
Think about it - found on a wall means probably rapped on. Rapped on means weak point from pulling rope. Sling breaks you die. Not worth it.
That's why I don't like the sliding x - sling breaks or unties (which has happened) you die. Slings don't have sheath/core like rope for redundancy.
Cordalette has built in redundancy. Studies have shown the knot doesn't pull through if one loop breaks.
Same guys who tend to use opposed draws tend to use bent gate biners on draws - better than sliding x but not as safe as cordalette.

I could see focus on speed for super long alpine route but I also often see the same guys who focus on speed only climbing half the day - what did that speed buy you?

Lou Hibbard wrote:I climbed with a guy in a climbing club once who loved the sliding x and his sling he used was found on a wall. Think about it - found on a wall means probably rapped on. Rapped on means weak point from pulling rope. Sling breaks you die. Not worth it. That's why I don't like the sliding x - sling breaks or unties (which has happened) you die. Slings don't have sheath/core like rope for redundancy. Cordalette has built in redundancy. Same guys who tend to use opposed draws tend to use bent gate biners on draws - better than sliding x but not as safe as cordalette. I could see focus on speed for super long alpine route but I also often see the same guys who focus on speed only climbing half the day - what did that speed buy you?

the problem isnt the sliding X in your example ... but someone using unknown soft goods

regularly inspected slings with a known history will not break under normal usage

as to speed ... theres plenty of times you want to run up an easy multi as a warm up or cool down ... in fact doing multi runs on a particular squamish 6 pitch classic as the sun sets on summer weekends is the best way to find booty ....

of course if you simul it you probably wont bother with sliding Xs

to put it simply people generally arent dying left right and centre from sliding Xs on good bolts ... just make sure you know the sling and its not rubbing on any edges

;)