Adding Bolts between runouts

don'tchuffonme wrote:The real answer is that it depends on the route- if there is indeed an "established" route. A very good example where you would receive bucketloads of shit and backlash is the Bachar-Yerian. Another where you would receive a bunch of shit but you could disregard it because it was a contrived lump of shit waiting on bolts to become quality is Archangel. Honestly though, if your limit is in the .10s, there is plenty out there to crank on that is well protected and will keep you from pondering shitshow topics like this one. Jeff J, just spitballing here, but did you graduate high school? If so, you may have some sort of valid lawsuit on your hands. Go get 'em tgier.

The bold part literally made me laugh out loud! The rest of the post is pretty much spot on too. Cheers!

Jared.... Just say no.

I see your pretty green....

learn from MP.

Hahaha I'm too burnt out from the recent cold snaps...been slacking. Maybe I'll get liquored up later and get creative.

I consider hand drilled bolts on lead to be tradtional protection... Takes more brass in my opinion than plugging a .75 Camalot. I am not opposed to replacing suspect or failing fixed pro but adding bolts to any established route to make a safer lead in my opinion is disgraceful to you the route and the great men and woman that had the vision and prowess to establish such a line and where nice enough to report the information to the current guide book author so 20 years later some piss ant can come shit all over his accomplishment There was a reason why bocan was throw to the dogs
And eldo has been preserved as a traditionalist playground...

Not talking shit bout the stone or the great tradtional tests pieces the reside there
More or less the ethics that have led to in my opinion a very benign experience

John bachar was quoted saying " climbing is onsight ground up free solo
Any thing else is just a compromise.
How much are you willing to compromise and still call your self a climber?

Camelot is a place.
Women is the plural of woman.
Benign means harmless. Harmless isn't really how I would describe runouts.
The past tense of throw is thrown.

Your opinion is invalid until you learn how to spell on a 3rd grade level or higher, or climb 5.12c.

Locker wrote:You know what that is, right?

I would be surprised to learn that chills knows what he ate for breakfast.

don'tchuffonme wrote:Camelot is a place. Women is the plural of woman. Benign means harmless. Harmless isn't really how I would describe runouts. The past tense of throw is thrown. Your opinion is invalid until you learn how to spell on a 3rd grade level or higher, or climb 5.12c. I would be surprised to learn that chills knows what he ate for breakfast.

Check out the big brain on don'tchuffonme. You go girl!

Never heard that one! in the sense of movement over stone I can see it but from a mental stand point I think you are full of shit and for bolted slab "trad " routes in the platt bishop Jagger's and topo oceans sticks out as favorites and yes retro bolting is addition or replacement of fixed pro and excuse my use of rap bolt In an earlier post I assumed any one retro bolting would do so on rappel I know I'm a fuck up but I hope the mighty lord of the locker forgives and for where that leaves me on my way to eldo to have a wonderful day hope you do the same locker sounds like you need it

chills wrote:Never heard that one! in the sense of movement over stone I can see it but from a mental stand point I think you a full of shit and for bolted slab "trad " routes in the platt bishop Jagger's and topo oceans sticks out as favorite and yes retro bolting is addition or replacement of fixed pro and excuse my use of rap bolt I an earlier post I assumed any one retro bolting would do so on rappel I know I'm a fuck up but I hope the mighty lord of the locker forgives and for where that leaves me on my way to eldo to have a wonderful day hope you do the same locker sounds like you need it

Will someone please translate that gibberish into English for me?

chills wrote:By NC Rock Climber From The Oven, AKA Phoenix 11 mins ago Adding bolts is totally fine. Last time I checked there is no law anywhere that gives the FA any type of ownership or control over the rock just because they were there first. Others will strongly disagree and threaten you with physical violence and scorn for being a retro-bolting pussy. Regardless, the world will continue to turn and Eva Mendes will be smoking hot for at least another 5 years. It is called respect something a stick clipping bolt crusher like you may never understand... Spend some time on some classic trad routes before you disregard the right of the FA party to disagree with some pussy coming in and rap bolting Their once classic traditional mind control test piece!!! Hey nc rock climber if you ever come to the front range I would spend most of my time in bocan plenty of safe grid bolted bullshit for you In there

Ha ha ha. I love this kind of post. Written with the supreme amount of authority and clarity that is only afforded to a 23 year old, righteous Boulderite who climbs 5.10. Bravo.

In particular, I love the fact that Mr. Chills ignores the fact that NC Rock climber is from, well, North Carolina, which likely means that he/she climbs lots of trad and runout stuff (i.e. hardly a bolt clipping "weenie"). Chills post even includes the token dig on Boulder Canyon, which as we all know is a pussies-only climbing area (grin). From my perspective, NC was just making the point that climbers shouldn't take their activity so seriously. Its climbing, not cancer surgery.

This thread reminds me of Lord of the Flies.

I was answering specific question to a post by locker and nc climber lives in AZ.
I didn't know people would have such a hard time reading a bullshit forum post with out the guidelines of punctuation.

I propose that anyone wishing to start a new retro-bolting thread, be required to first read the entire "law of the first ascent" thread on Supertopo. Then, one year later, if you still want to discuss it, read it again.

J. Albers wrote: Ha ha ha. I love this kind of post. Written with the supreme amount of authority and clarity that is only afforded to a 23 year old, righteous Boulderite who climbs 5.10. Bravo. In particular, I love the fact that Mr. Chills ignores the fact that NC Rock climber is from, well, North Carolina, which likely means that he/she climbs lots of trad and runout stuff (i.e. hardly a bolt clipping "weenie"). Chills post even includes the token dig on Boulder Canyon, which as we all know is a pussies-only climbing area (grin). From my perspective, NC was just making the point that climbers shouldn't take their activity so seriously. Its climbing, not cancer surgery.

Thanks, J. I am glad someone gets it.

For the record, I lived and climbed in NC for 8 years and moved to AZ in 2011. I did some of the runnout stuff on Stone. It is really scary (I literally shit my pants on Great White Way), but fun in a "type 2" way. I preferred Table Rock, Linville and Moores. Bolt clipping is cool too, but my passion is trad. I think that Eva also likes trad.

I know that you won't get this, chills, but I think that you would make a great fundamentalist christian. You seem to be really good at repeating what others have said and telling people what to do.

Also
don'tchuffonme
I was referring to the benign nature of boulder canyon?!?
Not sure where or how you pieced together the benign nature of runouts?

And I'm not a boulderite I'm a redneck from Idaho with a pair and strict traditional ethics and any one that has a problem with that can piss off!!!

Jon Nelson wrote: In the rainy NW, runout routes are generally lost to history because almost nobody does them, which generally means that the rock gets reclaimed by moss. When the route is already established, the ethic is often to ask the FA party. Sometimes the FA party comes back years later and adds the bolts themselves. Though in some areas, such an action could provoke some bolt-chopping.

runnout slab routes are alive and kicking in squamish ... many of em are considered classics ... no one is adding any bolts to em

in fact one of the most popular apron slab routes gets done all the time ... it has exactly one (or two with the variation) bolt on it ...

mountainproject.com/v/banna…

its considered a "must do" for any beginner trad multipitcher ... youll simply have to deal with 50+ foot runnouts on 5.6 slab

dont fall

;)

And to mr Albers that is not a dig at boulder canyon at all but the ethics employed there in the past two or three decade.it's a simple fact boulder canyon is inherently safe compared to most other front range crags. Some of my favorite pitches in the boulder area are in bocan...

Chuffer

No not a proper use of punctuation again
But again you are a petty dick
Hope this post was not to long for you to decifer
With out proper punctuation

I want to play!!!!

I don't think that bolts on bold routes and on routes that were bolted on lead should be added.

However, I do believe that some sport routes are totally fucked and the bolts should be yanked and reworked. Usually this wouldn't add more bolts but would put them in different places. Occasionally, this would add a bolt or two.

It's seriously stupid to have rap bolted unsafe routes. The entire point of the endeavor is to have a safely bolted route that allows the climber to push it. There is no such thing as a bold sport route, rather, a run out sport route is either a failure of the bolter or an arbitrary addition that does not stand up to scrutiny.

I will give examples. Pick pocket in Shelf needs 4 bolts. Lower the second one, put a third where you can clip it setting up for the crux, and add a 4th on the slab once you're above the lip. This would allow you to actually do the crux, rather than force you stop mid crux to clip. It would actually make the route flow freer and climb more natural.

Want more. Go to the Madness Cave at the Red. On routes like Bohica and 40oz the draws are up to 3 and 4 feet long, this is so you can actually clip from the stances. Those routes were so steep that they went up any way they could. They've seen enough traffic now that the clipping stances are known.

A few feet to right, on Tuna Town, you'll fly 50ft if you blow the crux. It's totally safe and you are never forced to stop mid move to clip. Adding a bolt would mess up the flow and would not change the safety of the route, so it would be silly to put one in.

To sum it all up. I do not think that lazy route developers or people who misjudged clipping stances should have any right of ownership. They opened a piece of stone, that is all.

don'tchuffonme wrote:Yeah. That worked out GREAT in Connecticut.

CT is doing fine, we have Ben Chisols-

"Hey Clint, You seem to have quite a stake in this issue. You quote like an IT consultant, scold the admins for their views, do extensive research, comment on tree conditions, discuss CT climbing ethics and history, spread fear of grid rap bolting, participate in our surveys, and complain about result accuracy when results don't support your views. The thing is you don't live in CT! You used to live in Mass years ago, but not in CT, and have probably climbed on CT crags less than 50 different times. I bet you can count the number of cliffs in CT you have been to on your hands, if not one hand. (Correct me if I'm wrong and make sure to quote me).

You live near the Valley, you have THOUSANDS of amazing trad lines for thousands of feet, yet you find the time to come to this thread and mingle with an issue that is 3000 miles from you. I know you used to climb a bit with Ken and support his views on "ethics". I hope there are other reasons for being in this thread other than being the defense counsel for Ken Nichols. You claim to not be kicking the hornets nest from afar but you are. I also hope you have a 9-5 job that sits you in front of your computer cuz if you spend your free time surfing and pretending to moderate a CT bolting thread, you may want to find other productive stuff to do with your time. Since you joined this thread on page 7 you have tried to be the voice of reason to the thread. You are not a moderator, you have no right telling moderators what they can say about Ken. You're just a guy that climbs too much, and spent some of that time climbing with Ken. I'm just a guy bored at work looking for a new hobby now that CT Climbing has pissed me off.

I have grown tired of the debates, and have started writing my own manifesto. The way I see it is that I own everything and will have the secret final decision in everything. I will ask no landowner or climber for permission for anything. I am not bound by ethics, and don't give a shit about FAs and lifetime climbers. I have little issue with chopping holds in retaliation for every chopped bolt. If I retro-date my exchange rate I think I probably owe Ken 100 or so chopped holds on his favorite climbs. I know where Ken lives, I know where he likes to climb/is allowed to climb, amd I know his favorite climbs. I am a creation of Ken, destined to put balance to the bad energy Ken has spewed for so long!

The time for me to be passive has gone; trad climbers that whine about bolts have pissed me off to stoop down to the level of Ken. Ken adopted his manifesto to stop renegade bolters, so I figure the best way to piss him off and fight back would to be a renegade bolter. Somebody has to and fate has picked me. The stories of that douchebag Ken will disappear with the stories of the ultimate douchebag "Ben Chisols" who chopped half the key holds to great climbs in CT in a drawn-out stubborn stalemate between Ken and me. I know I will live longer than Ken, and I know I am more stubborn than him! (Believe it or not) I will have people fear my chisel and crowbar more than Ken's hacksaw!!! (Sorry guideline #1; I tried for too long but 10 pages of posts, and 10 years of BS...) I love climbing and will do whatever I deem necessary to preserve what I love at any cost. I now know the only way to stop Ken short of killing/dismembering is to become a bigger asshole than Ken. Sometimes an explosion is needed to put out a nasty long-burning fire. This will be the end of our Gulf War in CT.

And screw the trees; I burn trees for fun! People will be more for bolted anchors if there were no trees to tie to and all the gear-placement options have been crowbarred. I will do whatever I deem necessary to make Ken's remaining years on earth miserable and he will see on his deathbed that all his effort was in vain and all his favorite climbs are now either bolted or chiseled to a pile a rubble. Now CT will have a new Ken-like figure that is just as evil, if not more, but on the pro-bolts side of the equation. I have also moved from pro toprope anchors and death-fall bolts to pro grid bolting, more to spite Ken's efforts than the liking of sport. (In fact I like trad more than sport, but am the only trad climber that doesn't freak out because I have the option to clip a bolt).

Simply put, bolts go up in CT or CT climbing as we know it will be forever ruined by some random assholes online. I am asking 0 permission from anyone, especially land owners b/c they have no say in this. I hope you all are really getting pissed off at this Ben Chisols guy about now! The grid bolts start appearing next winter and the holds start getting chopped as fast as those bolts disappear, (or if I just get bored and feel like chopping, that's what is so fun about being a crazy, righteous, asshole, I don' t even need a reason sometimes). Ken Nichols has now given rise to Ben Chisols. The war is now on! Now Clint the CT bolting Admin, let's see you pick this choss apart with your quoting tool. I expect at least 3000+ words or you get an automatic F on your paper."

mountainproject.com/v/bolti…

Boy am I sorry I brought that example up. No one really gives a shit about that speck, and I'm surprised that anyone ever did.