Mountain Project Logo

Water knots

Original Post
William Kramer · · Kemmerer, WY · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 935

I have been reading a book about mountaineering, and the author states how they hate the water knot with webbing, saying it is unreliable and has a high chance of coming undone. I have personally never had an issue, and use long webbing slings connected with water knot for girth hitching natural pro, I am also a firefighter and we use same type of slings for same purposes when doing rope rescue. Has anybody ever had an issue of a water knot slipping or coming undone?

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

You're about to get BOTH answers.

Some say it's a problem. Others don't.

I personally have not had a problem with the knot slipping when used with webbing.

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

Locker said: I personally have not had a problem with the knot slipping when used with webbing.

+1. My experience is the same.

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155

I have seen the knot migrate a little ( like 1/4 inch) but i keep pretty long tails on mine so it has never been an issue.

divnamite · · New York, NY · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 90

read the test result.

user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/t…

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
William Kramer wrote:I have been reading a book about mountaineering, and the author states how they hate the water knot with webbing, saying it is unreliable and has a high chance of coming undone. I have personally never had an issue, and use long webbing slings connected with water knot for girth hitching natural pro, I am also a firefighter and we use same type of slings for same purposes when doing rope rescue. Has anybody ever had an issue of a water knot slipping or coming undone?
Slings carried and used personally typically don't get enough loading for the tail creep to be a critical issue, although it is more than sensible to periodically inspect such slings. The real problem with the water knot (and there is one, as the Moyer testing indicates) is when the knot is used for rap slings that are left in place in highly-frequented areas. Those slings can go through a large number of loading cycles, and I have encountered such slings several times with one of the tails already completely inside the knot.

I'd say it is wrong to tie rap slings with a water knot because of the danger they might pose to someone else down the line. Use a double fisherman's; it is ugly but totally stable.
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
rgold wrote: Slings carried and used personally typically don't get enough loading for the tail creep to be a critical issue, although it is more than sensible to periodically inspect such slings. The real problem with the water knot (and there is one, as the Moyer testing indicates) is when the knot is used for rap slings that are left in place in highly-frequented areas. Those slings can go through a large number of loading cycles, and I have encountered such slings several times with one of the tails already completely inside the knot. I'd say it is wrong to tie rap slings with a water knot because of the danger they might pose to someone else down the line. Use a double fisherman's; it is ugly but totally stable.
yep
coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55

Not the knot for Spectra/Dyneema slings (why those are sewn) but just fine with nylon PROVIDED you leave tails and tighten well.

Most folks go with sewn, but I like to have a double of the tied variety as one can untie it for a very long single strand or for trees and threads. Better cut resistance than cord too.

Most folks use 6 or 7mm perlon if doing trad or alpine for weight, bulk and easy rigging, supertape (7/16") for more durability and one inch tubular for heavy duty top roping, etc.

Good habit to check ALL knots and the water knot is super easy to inspect.

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

I don't think you are supposed to get them wet.... be careful.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
SinRopa wrote: Just curious, is the book "The Mountaineering Handbook" by Craig Connally? He's got a similar take on the water knot and suggests the "beer knot" instead.
In the beer knot, one tail is inside the tubular webbing and so not visible for inspection. You have to check by feel. For a rappel sling, this would almost seem like malicious intent.
Nick Smolinske · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 10

For a long time, I stored my trad rack on a sling tied from 1/2" tubular with a water knot. One day I picked up my rack to hand it to a friend and all of my cams dropped to the dirt between us, leaving me holding an empty piece of webbing.

Moral of the story: check your knots, and tighten them up well the first time. I probably didn't do a good job of initial tightening in that case. One way to do this for a permanent knot is to get it wet and then tighten it as hard as you can. When it dries it'll be even tighter. For permanently tied water knots (like the homemade rabbit runners I like to use), I sew the tails on (only on the edges, not through the center of the webbing) to prevent slippage.

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800

Real answer here:

The water knot is perfectly safe, however under repeated load/unload cycles, the knot will gradually eat the tails. Once one of the tails is fully consumed (disappears inside the knot), the knot will fail. A properly set knot will eat the tails more slowly than a loosely tied knot. Backup knots (simple overhand) will prolong the life of the knot (likely forever) as the backup knot will tighten as the tails are drawn into it. A good rule of thumb is that if you leave a long enough tail to tie a back up knot, you don't need a backup knot. Always inspect webbing tied with a water knot prior to use.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

I tie my personal slings with a double fishermans. Stronger but harder to confirm correct by inspection.

For quite a while, I've felt that the easier-to-inspect water knot was the knot for rap stations. I'd think that at least one person in hundreds would check the tails and retie if needed. Richard words upstream give me pause for thought - a little.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
SinRopa wrote: Have you used it? Getting the one end fed into the webbing far enough can be a pain, but once you tie it, it's easy to check by feel.
Yup, used the beer knot quite a lot for runners before sewn ones became the norm. And I stand by my comment for rap slings; it is hard enough to get people to do a visual inspection, the chance that more than a tiny minority will ever do the required tactile inspection of a beer knot---assuming that they even know they ought to---is very small. But as I said, I think the socially responsible thing is to use a double fisherman's on rap slings that others may end up using. There isn't a single feature of the water knot that makes it better for that application, and there are some potentially bad downsides.
Jim6565 Brassell · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 0

Beer knot. Much, much better

JacksonLandFill Wood · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 40

Before I had a "genuine grade a" (say it like yosemite same) climbing harness I used 1" webbing tied with a water knot to make a 3 point seat harness. Never had a problem, though I did re-tie it before each venture.

I make all my large anchors by joining webbing with a water knot. No problems. But then again it gets re-tied often.

  • * This is not reccomended, a normal climbing harness is much safer, reliable, and all around more comfortable.
coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55

Kinda think overtightening the water knot defeats the prime advantage in non-sewn slings: one can untie it for threading or doubling (almost) the sling length. Or for that matter adjusting top rope anchor lengths so the lockers sit where you need them.

I personally way prefer sewn slings as they eliminate any drama and aren't that much more expensive. Add the strength, bulk, weight and water absorption advantages of dyneema and I don't see the need for much tied slingage. Have been burning through a lot of 6mm to make or backup rap anchors, so I don't find webbing that useful anymore anyway.

Good comment on the beer knot, seems to me like standardized knots that are easy to and easy to inspect are a good thing, i.e bowline vs. the 8. Leaving behind knots no one knows how to tie seems a bit weird.

I really do appreciate it when folks (usually guides) set rap anchors with heavy guage perlon (8 or 9mm) and double fishermen knots that last an entire season.

Botton line being CHECK YOUR GEAR, especially if it's fixed!

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Which is precisely why I'm saying you should use a double fisherman's knot in rap slings!

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Richard, I wonder though how many new climbers would be more comfortable inspecting a water knot in rap webbing than the puzzle of a double fishermans in webbing.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Bill, that is a reasonable point I can't say has occurred to me.

Hmm, well, the only reason to inspect it (they don't slip, the tails don't creep) would be if it had been improperly tied. I haven't ever encountered an improperly tied double fisherman's knot, but I have, over the years, found several water knots with the tails dangerously close or entirely inside the knot. So in my experience the water knot is (much) more likely to be dangerous, but that's just my experience.

Since I am not going to tie a double fisherman's incorrectly, I feel I'm leaving my fellow climbers with a safer set-up than if I leave a water knot, which not everyone will inspect and which may work itself into a bad state.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Whether or not you personally invest time in teaching people about climbing (I have, and so have most of the experienced climbers I know), there isn't any way to keep up with the influx of new climbers.

But education is really entirely beside the point. Accidents sometimes happen because even highly trained and experienced people don't do something they know to do and usually do, but for some reason they don't do it in a situation that turns out to be critical. The "social responsibility" I mentioned isn't simply about protecting new climbers from their own ignorance. It is about avoiding, if possible, something that can bite anyone.

I'm not going to leave a knot that can and does work loose when I can leave one that doesn't. In so doing I'm trying to protect everyone, not simply noobs, from the stupid mistakes we all make sooner or later. It may be true that there are idiots out there who are bound to kill themselves one way or the other, but I don't see that as relieving me---or relieving us if I'm going to be preachy about it---of the responsibility choosing to leave a safer alternative.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Climbing Gear Discussion
Post a Reply to "Water knots"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.