Water knots
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I have been reading a book about mountaineering, and the author states how they hate the water knot with webbing, saying it is unreliable and has a high chance of coming undone. I have personally never had an issue, and use long webbing slings connected with water knot for girth hitching natural pro, I am also a firefighter and we use same type of slings for same purposes when doing rope rescue. Has anybody ever had an issue of a water knot slipping or coming undone? |
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Locker said: I personally have not had a problem with the knot slipping when used with webbing. |
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I have seen the knot migrate a little ( like 1/4 inch) but i keep pretty long tails on mine so it has never been an issue. |
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read the test result. |
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William Kramer wrote:I have been reading a book about mountaineering, and the author states how they hate the water knot with webbing, saying it is unreliable and has a high chance of coming undone. I have personally never had an issue, and use long webbing slings connected with water knot for girth hitching natural pro, I am also a firefighter and we use same type of slings for same purposes when doing rope rescue. Has anybody ever had an issue of a water knot slipping or coming undone?Slings carried and used personally typically don't get enough loading for the tail creep to be a critical issue, although it is more than sensible to periodically inspect such slings. The real problem with the water knot (and there is one, as the Moyer testing indicates) is when the knot is used for rap slings that are left in place in highly-frequented areas. Those slings can go through a large number of loading cycles, and I have encountered such slings several times with one of the tails already completely inside the knot. I'd say it is wrong to tie rap slings with a water knot because of the danger they might pose to someone else down the line. Use a double fisherman's; it is ugly but totally stable. |
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rgold wrote: Slings carried and used personally typically don't get enough loading for the tail creep to be a critical issue, although it is more than sensible to periodically inspect such slings. The real problem with the water knot (and there is one, as the Moyer testing indicates) is when the knot is used for rap slings that are left in place in highly-frequented areas. Those slings can go through a large number of loading cycles, and I have encountered such slings several times with one of the tails already completely inside the knot. I'd say it is wrong to tie rap slings with a water knot because of the danger they might pose to someone else down the line. Use a double fisherman's; it is ugly but totally stable.yep |
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Not the knot for Spectra/Dyneema slings (why those are sewn) but just fine with nylon PROVIDED you leave tails and tighten well. |
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I don't think you are supposed to get them wet.... be careful. |
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SinRopa wrote: Just curious, is the book "The Mountaineering Handbook" by Craig Connally? He's got a similar take on the water knot and suggests the "beer knot" instead.In the beer knot, one tail is inside the tubular webbing and so not visible for inspection. You have to check by feel. For a rappel sling, this would almost seem like malicious intent. |
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For a long time, I stored my trad rack on a sling tied from 1/2" tubular with a water knot. One day I picked up my rack to hand it to a friend and all of my cams dropped to the dirt between us, leaving me holding an empty piece of webbing. |
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Real answer here: |
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I tie my personal slings with a double fishermans. Stronger but harder to confirm correct by inspection. |
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SinRopa wrote: Have you used it? Getting the one end fed into the webbing far enough can be a pain, but once you tie it, it's easy to check by feel.Yup, used the beer knot quite a lot for runners before sewn ones became the norm. And I stand by my comment for rap slings; it is hard enough to get people to do a visual inspection, the chance that more than a tiny minority will ever do the required tactile inspection of a beer knot---assuming that they even know they ought to---is very small. But as I said, I think the socially responsible thing is to use a double fisherman's on rap slings that others may end up using. There isn't a single feature of the water knot that makes it better for that application, and there are some potentially bad downsides. |
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Beer knot. Much, much better |
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Before I had a "genuine grade a" (say it like yosemite same) climbing harness I used 1" webbing tied with a water knot to make a 3 point seat harness. Never had a problem, though I did re-tie it before each venture.
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Kinda think overtightening the water knot defeats the prime advantage in non-sewn slings: one can untie it for threading or doubling (almost) the sling length. Or for that matter adjusting top rope anchor lengths so the lockers sit where you need them. |
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Which is precisely why I'm saying you should use a double fisherman's knot in rap slings! |
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Richard, I wonder though how many new climbers would be more comfortable inspecting a water knot in rap webbing than the puzzle of a double fishermans in webbing. |
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Bill, that is a reasonable point I can't say has occurred to me. |
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Whether or not you personally invest time in teaching people about climbing (I have, and so have most of the experienced climbers I know), there isn't any way to keep up with the influx of new climbers. |
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Two hollow rap rings, one solid rap ring, or a beefy quicklink. |