.

VaGenius wrote:Why the hyphen between the same name twice?

It isn't "the same name twice" because naming conventions include the position of the name. Your question is the same as asking why we use 1 twice when naming the point (1,1) in the Cartesian plane.

In most Latin American countries, people have two surnames by law. A child's two surnames are the first surname of the father followed by the first surname of the mother. When a woman gets married, she keeps her first surname (her father's) but changes her second surname to her husband's first surname (his father's). So the net result is that a child ends up with the first surname of his or her paternal grandfather and the second surname of his or her maternal grandfather. If, by coincidence, those two surnames are the same, then the child has two identical surnames, just like the point (1,1).

The hyphen is not traditional, but has been made necessary by the advent of computerized records, since many programs do not recognize two words separated by a space as a single name.

Dear Rgold: Many thanks for your response. That’s exactly true.
Before PR became part of US, It belonged to Spain, hence the naming convection (even though most US federal laws apply to PR, we are exempt from some of them).
When I moved to US, I tried to use my last name as I knew, but the University kept joining them (or trimming one of them). So I decided to hyphenate them. After finishing my studies, I moved back to PR, but kept using the hyphen.
For some systems or forums, I use a handle or a log/sign name, but must of the time I use my real last name.

Dear VaGenius: Thanks again for your question and response.

I still have a question about the UP. What carabiner has the same (or very close) geometry as the one that comes with the UP?

Luis Colon-Colon wrote:I still have a question about the UP. What carabiner has the same (or very close) geometry as the one that comes with the UP?

I don't know. I think the point of CT forcing you to buy a carabiner with the device is to avoid the substantial performance variations the other devices are subject to. The UP instructions give the carabiner stock diameter as 12mm, so that might be a starting point for evaluating other carabiners, but probably the cross-sectional shape of the carabiner matters too.

The carabiner that comes with the UP has a spring-loaded gate that captures the harness belay loop and so keeps the carabiner from rotating into a cross-loaded position. I suspect that a major worry is not the cross-loading, but the fact that the braking assist mechanism might be defeated by a cross-loaded carabiner. So I'd guess that any carabiner you use should have some type of cross-load avoidance technology.

Another issue is the use of the device in dynamic rather than locking mode. The carabiner goes through a hole in the frame and the supplied carabiner just barely has enough gate clearance to make it. If you use another carabiner, make sure to test that it will be able to be used in dynamic mode.

But really, why not just use the carabiner that comes with it?

rgold,

This was the problem I described earlier in the thread.

Say you make a gumby move and the carabiner is suddenly at the base of the crag under the leaf litter never to be seen again.

First, you're stuck using a munter hitch for the rest of the climb. Then you need to invest in another CT carabiner.

Not the biggest deal, but still somewhat annoying.

rgold wrote: I don't know. I think the point of CT forcing you to buy a carabiner with the device is to avoid the substantial performance variations the other devices are subject to. The UP instructions give the carabiner stock diameter as 12mm, so that might be a starting point for evaluating other carabiners, but probably the cross-sectional shape of the carabiner matters too. The carabiner that comes with the UP has a spring-loaded gate that captures the harness belay loop and so keeps the carabiner from rotating into a cross-loaded position. I suspect that a major worry is not the cross-loading, but the fact that the braking assist mechanism might be defeated by a cross-loaded carabiner. So I'd guess that any carabiner you use should have some type of cross-load avoidance technology. Another issue is the use of the device in dynamic rather than locking mode. The carabiner goes through a hole in the frame and the supplied carabiner just barely has enough gate clearance to make it. If you use another carabiner, make sure to test that it will be able to be used in dynamic mode. But really, why not just use the carabiner that comes with it?

The problems arose with the ClickUp where a smaller karabiner can jam the rope in the device making lowering impossible and if a normal HMS rotates. With a cross-loaded karabiner the locking function on the Alpine UP may be prevented from working as the device catches on the gate of the karabiner and can´t slide forwards, it can also be immobilised with a DMM Belaymaster or similar design.

rgold wrote: But really, why not just use the carabiner that comes with it?

Local climbing’s stores don’t stock CT products. Rei, Camor and mountain gear neither (the ones I use more). I bought my UP from Amazon but they don’t sell the carabiner alone (CONCEPT SGL HG). Of course I will use the supplied carabiner; but if I drop/lost it, I hate to render the UP useless or otherwise dangerous --I know, climbing is a dangerous sport but, as stated in this thread before, NO, I DO NOT LET GO my braking hand even with self-locking device like the grigri. I just want a backup carabiner that I can use with the UP without adding dangerous elements/situations to the climbing/belaying.

Again thanks for your time/answers.

Luis Colon-Colon wrote: Local climbing’s stores don’t stock CT products. Rei, Camor and mountain gear neither (the ones I use more). I bought my UP from Amazon but they don’t sell the carabiner alone (CONCEPT SGL HG).

For others who may be looking, a quick look at Google shopping gives six stores in the U.S. that carry the UP. I recommend my local shop, Rock and Snow, as a place run by climbers who are experienced in the field and who take out the gear and test it themselves.

Luis Colon-Colon wrote: Of course I will use the supplied carabiner; but if I drop/lost it, I hate to render the UP useless or otherwise dangerous...I just want a backup carabiner that I can use with the UP without adding dangerous elements/situations to the climbing/belaying. Again thanks for your time/answers.

I do know people who use other carabiners with the UP. In the post above, Jim told us that one problem has to do with carabiners whose stock was too thin, causing jamming. I'd guess that a carabiner with 12mm diameter and some sort of cross-loading prevention will be fine as a backup. There are several a few carabiners on the market now that look identical to the one supplied with the UP.

Test the carabiner to make sure the cross-loading prevention system doesn't interfere with the carabiner's travel up the belay slot. Jim mentioned the DMM Belaymaster in this regard and I'd be suspicious of the BD Gridlock too. Test it to make sure it has the gate clearance to work in dynamic belaying mode if you care about that for a backup biner.

Having said all that, I honestly think the worry about losing the carabiner is overblown. At least the way I handle my gear, there is no chance of losing just the carabiner. It is conceivable that I could drop the biner and the device, and it is conceivable that I could drop the device but not the biner, but there simply is no circumstance in my handling when I could drop just the biner, which means replacing or backing up the carabiner is simply not an issue. Of course, I understand YMMV.

Since I prefer autolocking biners, and could not obtain Climbing Technology's autolocking version of the biner with the Up, I have been using a DMM Aero HMS. It seems to work as well as the provided biner in all modes.

Whatever biner you use, make sure that the Up rotates sufficiently in guide mode to release properly. That seemed to be the biggest constraint of the biners with the correct cross section. Mammut makes a version of the Bionic that also works (and is lighter).

rgold wrote: For others who may be looking, a quick look at Google shopping gives six stores in the U.S. that carry the UP.

Thanks for the tip. When I said local, I meant PR stores. The post was also looking for the carabiner alone, not the UP.

rgold wrote:Having said all that, I honestly think the worry about losing the carabiner is overblown.

Yes, I worried too much. In fact, after reading your post, I realized I needed that (the friendly slap).

rgold wrote: I recommend my local shop, Rock and Snow,

In their web page they don’t have the carabineer, neither the parabiner. Does the parabiner is the same as the CONCEPT SGL HC HMS?

Again, thanks

acrophobe wrote:Since I prefer autolocking biners, and could not obtain Climbing Technology's autolocking version of the biner with the Up, I have been using a DMM Aero HMS. It seems to work as well as the provided biner in all modes. Whatever biner you use, make sure that the Up rotates sufficiently in guide mode to release properly. That seemed to be the biggest constraint of the biners with the correct cross section. Mammut makes a version of the Bionic that also works (and is lighter).

Thanks

Rock Exotica makes a beautiful autolocking carabiner with a wire anti-crossloading gate, the Pirate WireEye Auto-Lock rockexotica.com/products/ca….

I don't know if it works with the UP but it looks like it is the right size and shape.

Climbing Technology makes essentially the same carabiner as the one supplied with the UP, but with a twist-lock sleeve, the Concept TGL.

Folks who are interested could contact Liberty Mountain, which is, I think, the US distributor for the Alpine UP. Rock and Snow carries the UP and might be able to special order a carabiner made by Climbing Technology (I originally got the UP via special order from Rock and Snow). rockandsnow.com/store/go/co…

Carabiners

Carabiners2

OK...maybe not then. Diameter looks bigger than the CT biner.

rgold wrote:OK...maybe not then. Diameter looks bigger than the CT biner.

I don't have a measuring caliper in my home (on tuesday I will have it). However they are almost the same thick. The difference is at the locking/gate part.

I meant is bigger in diameter but is even bigger near the nose part.

Based on this thread and all the great info it contained I went out and purchased an Alpine Smart. I have used it outside on 4 occasions, rapped multiple pitches and caught a few lead falls. In no particular order, here are my thoughts:

- Once you learn the technique, you can feed out rope quickly. I used a big fat 10.2, and it worked ok. With a 9.8, it was awesome.

- I used the "low friction" rappel set up and had no issues. it seemed to provide about the same friction as an atc guide in low friction mode.

- The lock assist worked great in catching falls and holding my partner while she worked a route on TR. the creep is minimal (sometimes non-existant), and the catch felt softer than with a grigri.

- It works great in guide mode.

Overall, I am pleased with the Alpine Smart. I have retired my ATC Guide and will only take out my GriGri if I am going out to just clip bolts.

I will be interested to hear what Killis has to say about the Alpine Up. It was a close call between the two devices, but the Smart just looked simpler to me.

one disadvantage of the "low friction" mode of the smart is that, like a biner brake, it is quite hard to bump back up even a few inches ... which means you need to set it on the rope exactly on rap ... its hard to "bump" up

with a petzl william it raps quite well in assisted locking rap on ropes that arent thick and stiff with the proper technique

basically you push the lever with the elbow into your body (place elbow against your ribs and push the lever, dont push with your elbow outwards as this tires your shoulders) ... then take your other hand slide it down the rope and FEED it into the device ... and slide the hand down again and keep feeding in large strokes .... dont use the "slide the rope through your hand" , feeding it makes it much easier

the other disadvantage of rapping on an alpine smart is that in locking mode its a biatch to rap on it extended on a PAS/sling ... if you are wearing a heavy pack and rapping with it with assisted locking, learn how to tie a "baudrier parisienne" ...

its a skill you should have anyways at that point for an emergency chest harness

;)

It was a close call for me. I kinda got a fan-boy thing going for RGold, so when he suggested the Alpine Up I was almost sold. However, I read the instructions for the AU, read the instructions for the Smart, and IMHO the Smart just seemed more straightforward. IIRC, RGolds big negative on the Smart was its poor performance on rappel. However, he did not try it in the "low friction" mode, and for me that configuration solves the problem RGold had with the device. I'll be interested for others to post up when they try the AU.

No, my main complaint about the Smart is it isn't anywhere near as good for handling half ropes. If you aren't using half ropes, the Up is no longer as clearly advantageous and is bulkier, heavier, and more expensive than its competitors. One thing it isn't is more complicated. In fact, given that no special hand action is needed to pump slack and given that both hands are always free when belaying in general, one could argue that the UP is simpler to operate, if not to contemplate...

Thanks for posting up again about this, Rich. I should have been more clear in my post; I do not use half ropes very often. If I did, the AU very well would have been my choice.