Anyone have experience with these bolt hangers???

20 kN wrote: And yes, you can paint them with whatever you want as they are not in a corrosive environment.

So what you are saying is it is fine to paint SS hangers as long as they are in a non-corrosive (e.g. salt air) environment?

Locker wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken. But what I THINK 20kn is saying is: "And yes, you can paint them with whatever you want as they are not in a corrosive environment."

Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious. It is readily apparent what this says but I want to clarify it beyond all doubt and let others chime in if they disagree. Because you know what comes out of discussions like this... "If you paint a SS hanger it is going to corrode and break and someone will die." NEVER paint a SS hanger." Just like if you drop a biner on the ground you must ALWAYS retire it immediately or it will break and someone will die. Instead of don't paint SS hangers in a corrosive environment and retire a biner if you drop it a long distance on to a rock.

Brian wrote: Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious. It is readily apparent what this says but I want to clarify it beyond all doubt and let others chime in if they disagree. Because you know what comes out of discussions like this... "If you paint a SS hanger it is going to corrode and break and someone will die." NEVER paint a SS hanger." Just like if you drop a biner on the ground you must ALWAYS retire it immediately or it will break and someone will die. Instead of don't paint SS hangers in a corrosive environment and retire a biner if you drop it a long distance on to a rock.

Well, that´s his opinion. My opinion as an engineer:-)with vastly more experience both with stainless steel and climbing AND as a manufacturer is DON´T paint hangers.
You are ALWAYS making them potentially less safe by reducing their corrosion resistance and inspectability.

Yes, of course Jim is right…but he deals with wet climates, limestone, etc.

In the western US there are a number of places where shiny bolts will produce bans on rock climbing, so sometimes paint is necessary. Particularly if you use stainless steel bolts in dry desert climates on granite & sandstone.

Jim Titt wrote: Well, that´s his opinion. My opinion as an engineer:-)with vastly more experience both with stainless steel and climbing AND as a manufacturer is DON´T paint hangers. You are ALWAYS making them potentially less safe by reducing their corrosion resistance and inspectability.

..."making them 'potentially' less safe..." Is that reducing their strength from 25KN to 24KN? Or is that making them snap after 100 falls? Pure speculation. Does anyone know of any real-world documented cases of a hanger (painted or not) breaking after a climber falling on it? I would think (not very scientific) that the aluminum biner would break first.

You know what the say about engineers? You can always tell and engineer but you can't tell them much. :-)

I really like the madrock hangers a lot. They are smaller and very dull in appearance. On grey limestone they cause very little visual impact.

They are also stainless and appear to be of great quality all around. Fixe hangers are very nice, but visually they are more impactful. I haven't tried climb-techs, but I don't like shiny hangers. They look as shiny as some of the pagan stainless hangers I have seen. I have never liked the metolius stainless hanger as I have seen several with light surface rust on them (yes, in the desert). That makes me wonder about the quality of their stainless.

In good limestone, a 304SS KB3 and a Madrock 304SS Hanger is my first choice. Here in the desert, I expect they will last generations.

Greg Barnes wrote:Yes, of course Jim is right…but he deals with wet climates, limestone, etc. In the western US there are a number of places where shiny bolts will produce bans on rock climbing, so sometimes paint is necessary. Particularly if you use stainless steel bolts in dry desert climates on granite & sandstone.

Sure, its a judgement that the installer has to make whether to risk the wrath of a park ranger or potential failure.
Not a decision a manufacturer can make though, we can only work to best practice to avoid liability issues.
Glue-ins have less visual impact anyway:-)

Brian wrote: Does anyone know of any real-world documented cases of a hanger (painted or not) breaking after a climber falling on it?

Yes

Jim Titt wrote: Yes

Well if you said it on the Internet it must be true. Verifiable proof?

To reiterate what Jim said, Glue Ins are BY FAR the lowest visual impact bolt you can put in the rock. They have no flat surface and that, combined with their shape and installed orientation means theres almost no reflective surface perpendicular to typical lines of sight. Often the glue color is the way you find them and matching glue color to rock type will help with that.

The worst offenders visually speaking are PS hangers (not me) and the ClimbTech SS ones. Both have an extremely reflective finish, almost mirror like. Because of access issues on my local limestone and the approach trail angle, any shiny hangers really stood out. I tested out some CT SS hangers and ended up painting them to reduce visual impact. Fixe SS and Glue Ins (my preferred setups) posed very little issue.

For painting, which I typically avoid, I do a few things that I HOPE will reduce corrosion issues. First, I only paint the visible surface and avoid painting the backside where more moisture is likely to build up. I also try to place them in low moisture areas so they don't remain damp for long. Lastly, I use LATEX spray paint which seems to hold up better and doesn't require any funky primers etc etc. Give it plenty of days to dry/cure and it's better than any Rustoleum I've tried. Not perfect and it will chip but better.

Again though, I try and avoid painting whenever possible as SS and Granite/Limestone aren't typically a bad combo. On brown rock / sandstone Glue Ins will probably provide the better visual solution (and anchor!)

Locker wrote:"Well if you said it on the Internet it must be true" If HE in particular said it, you're about to find out that it IS true. LOL!

Laugh - Arguing with Jim on technical issues is almost always a poor choice. About the only thing I might easily disagree with Jim about that's climbing related is the best after-climb BEER!

Locker wrote:"Well if you said it on the Internet it must be true" If HE in particular said it, you're about to find out that it IS true. LOL!

Well I don't really doubt that hangers and bolts have failed under the conditions described as corrosive (salt water). My point really is there are lots of painted hangers throughout the northeast in wet yet non-corrosive environments and they have been there many seasons and they are in good shape and no failures I've ever heard reported. I don't know Jim but it sounds like his word is the word of God. Hiding anchors in the northeast is not as important as the safety issue but pretty damn important.

I always appreciate some good technical advice, especially with 20Kns pics up above. Notice the SS is still pretty shiny on the outside and the metal doesnt seem to have swelled up too much where it broke.

We came across some stainless hangers on some carbon steel bolts about 2 months ago that had WAY worse surface rust than those pics of broken hangers had. Apparently they are only 2-3 years old, I'm glad I wasnt hooked into those.

Brian wrote: Well if you said it on the Internet it must be true. Verifiable proof?

Just Google Leeper hanger failure or Kong or......

Jim Titt wrote: Just Google Leeper hanger failure or Kong or......

I did Google this and it doesn't really have anything to do with painting SS hangers or corrosion of SS hangers. The Kong-Bonatti hangers are not stainless and are reported to not even be alloyed with enough steel to be magnetic. The Leeper hangers, as most know, are ancient alloy-steel bolt hangers made by Ed Leeper between 1962 and 1984. They are not stainless either. Poor examples.

Brian wrote: I did Google this and it doesn't really have anything to do with painting SS hangers or corrosion of SS hangers. The Kong-Bonatti hangers are not stainless and are reported to not even be alloyed with enough steel to be magnetic. The Leeper hangers, as most know, are ancient alloy-steel bolt hangers made by Ed Leeper between 1962 and 1984. They are not stainless either. Poor examples.

Which is a fine response, except that your question was:

Brian wrote:Does anyone know of any real-world documented cases of a hanger (painted or not) breaking after a climber falling on it? I would think (not very scientific) that the aluminum biner would break first.

There is a case of a Titanium bolt breaking in Texas, which is a non-corrosive environment. Obviously there are many documented cases of anchor failure in corrosive environments.

Brian wrote: I did Google this and it doesn't really have anything to do with painting SS hangers or corrosion of SS hangers. The Kong-Bonatti hangers are not stainless and are reported to not even be alloyed with enough steel to be magnetic. The Leeper hangers, as most know, are ancient alloy-steel bolt hangers made by Ed Leeper between 1962 and 1984. They are not stainless either. Poor examples.

There are pictures of failed painted hangers higher on this page.
Maybe it would be easier if you tell us the answer you want to hear and we´ll see if we can work out a suitable question for you to post.

shotwell wrote: There is a case of a Titanium bolt breaking in Texas, which is a non-corrosive environment. Obviously there are many documented cases of anchor failure in corrosive environments.

I believe the Texas Ti bolt failure was attributed to improper placement. It was a "P" bolt from Ushuba (I think) and the placement resulted in repeated shaft flexing and eventual failure (shaft snapped). It didn't have anything to do with corrosion.

Jim Titt wrote: There are pictures of failed painted hangers higher on this page. Maybe it would be easier if you tell us the answer you want to hear and we´ll see if we can work out a suitable question for you to post.

Maybe you are so closed minded that you can't discuss this without snide comments. All of the examples have unique issues. What I'm claiming is that a modern SS hanger (e.g. Fixe 25Kn) that is placed in the Northeast on granite and painted with a paint designed for metal (e.g. Rust-Oleum) isn't at any great risk of breaking anytime soon. There are lots of them and history has born this out.

I went back and looked again and I can’t find any instances where a hanger failure was attributed to painting. There may be some hangers that were painted and failed but there were other significant factors such as salt air, poor materials (Kong), or simply ancient (Leeper) that was the likely reason for failure. So I guess I’ll leave it at: if I’m still around in 20 years after whipping on lots of painted hangers I can say “I told you so.” If I die from a painted hanger snapping then you can say “I told you so.”

Weew, that was exciting, I wouldn't want to go on a road trip with this group anytime soon.

Locker wrote:Also used hundreds of the ClimbTech style and they're fine as well. They are shiny though like mentioned (Primer paint helps).

Working on it Locker! I'm listening to the feedback and improvements are being made. The edges on our hangers aren't nearly as rough as some others out there, mainly to keep them from nicking up carabiners, but yeah, they take a little while to dull down.