.

Thanks for the info, Jim. When they say the Smart "failed to stop the faller after 2.5M," does that mean that the Smart totally failed and did not significantly slow the fall or that the smart significantly slowed the fall but continued to slip? It would be interesting to understand the details of the test results.

From what I am reading, the smart and alpine up provide a significant level of braking assistance, but depend on the added braking force provide by the belayer to a much greater degree than the GriGri. Would you disagree?

Great thread, it’s refreshing to see so much valuable information and disagreements discussed thoughtfully. Thanks Jim especially, I feel like I learned something today.

For what it’s worth, I did go pick up an Alpine Up a few months ago based on the recommendation rgold gave me in another thread and I have been very happy with it. I have used it with half ropes only, and have not had to catch any whippers yet, but find it clicks/locks very easily when a partner weights a single strand and does not seem to slip with my 8.6mm Beals. My current standard practice is to climb with the combination of Alpine Up/ATC XP if I’m using half ropes and GriGri 2/ATC XP if I’m using a single line. I do like the GriGri on a single, but as mentioned above, that is not an option on doubles.

Indeed, Jim is da man. He is what made this thread more than just a bunch of opinions.

The results confirm some of my impressions of the UP vs. the Smart. Double the pull-through strength on 9.1 mm, for example, in other words much higher braking power and at the same time better rope-feeding properties.

The 10.3 mm pull-through comparison is even more striking, but at that diameter the handling of the UP starts to deteriorate and I wouldn't want to use it, while the same might not be true of the Smart.

As I said before, I'm not interested in hands-free results because I have no intention of doing that while belaying. But I'd still like to see how the top-roping test was set up. In any case, if I had to choose, I'd certainly rather have a device that catches leader rather than top-roping falls on its own, even if I'll never test those capabilities.

It does seem that with a pull-through strength of close to 600 lbf, it is pretty safe to let go of a blocked UP when rappelling on two 9.1 mm strands (but not safe enough for protracted whacking and dangling on a single strand).

I think of the UP as an ATC only considerably better. Not as a Gri-gri for double ropes.

Unfortunately we didnt get to do too much testing today .... But the smart locked up today just fine lowering and belaying on a 10.2 mm tendon under load

The azn princesses didnt feel like taking whippers on lead ... Temps were also right at freezing ... And we had about 3-4 hours of climbing time

Ill see if some id my partners want to do some whipping in the gyms soon ... We have all the major devices between use and probably 10+ smarts

Its in no way a hands free autolocking device but on whippers it provides more control than an atc ... Everyone i know who regularly catches whippers on em says the same

On a side note its quit hilarious when azn princesses lead and send 10- cracks on a cold winter day when all the tough guys just TR and run to the coffee shop rather than climbing

;)

bearbreeder wrote:Unfortunately we didnt get to do too much testing today .... But the smart locked up today just fine lowering and belaying on a 10.2 mm tendon under load The azn princesses didnt feel like taking whippers on lead ... Temps were also right at freezing ... And we had about 3-4 hours of climbing time Ill see if some id my partners want to do some whipping in the gyms soon ... We have all the major devices between use and probably 10+ smarts Its in no way a hands free autolocking device but on whippers it provides more control than an atc ... Everyone i know who regularly catches whippers on em says the same On a side note its quit hilarious when azn princesses lead and send 10- cracks on a cold winter day when all the tough guys just TR and run to the coffee shop rather than climbing ;)

wow dude, coolio bro, u da (rain)man
+1000

I think these are the DAV tests Jim referred to earlier (Panorama 3/2010). Picture posted on SuperTopo by Bearbreeder. Full issue, if you read German, at kletterhalle-leipzig.de/dow… .

On this design of plate there is the choice of having a less agressive angle for the karabiner which gives less handling problems and allows the transition from locked to unlocked easily or one goes to an agressive angle which gave more power but gave a horribly grabby device. The ClickUp goes for the higher power but uses the plastic thingies to hold the rope away from the locking position which avoids the handling issues but means they have to be overcome to move into the assisted mode. The DAV noted that you needed a strong tug to overcome this which is why hands-off it didn´t lock with a relatively soft fall. The other downside is you have to positively release after it has locked both of which might make using it as an ascender in this mode awkward, on the other hand the Smart probably wouldn´t hold me up anyway so about equal there!

I´d guess the direction to go in the future for this style is more to the TRE Sirius idea which offers much better potential for braking power, have to see how far the patents cover things and when they expire.

Jim's recounting of the UP's handling corresponds to my experience and I can see why it might not grab if unattended on a soft top-rope fall. As for needing a strong tug, I guess that is in the eye (or hand) of the tugger, but I think most people who use it don't feel that they are really tugging at all, they're just holding on to the brake strand and the thing clicks into position.

For example, you can accidentally lock it up when pumping slack out if you keep your brake hand down too far, and that doesn't constitute much of a tug.

The UP works quite well as an ascender as long as you just want to ascend. You don't have to unlock it to pull rope through it if you are taking in; the locking action prevents paying out. After photographing on rappel, I've used it and nothing else to ascend an 80 degree slab twenty or thirty feet back to the anchor, just pulling rope through the device and walking my feet up, just as you might do with a Grigri. If you were free-hanging you'd need a prussik for a footloop of course.

It would be very hard to disengage the UP while hanging on it if you wanted to move down though.

The TRE was an excellent device that I was totally happy with when new. However, the critical crossbar wore significantly and relatively rapidly and as it did, the amount of friction obtainable declined until it was really no longer the same device. Fix the wear problems and it would compete for the best assisted-braking device out there.

The alpine smart works decently well ascending even double 10mm+ ropes if you put it in autoblock mode

Realistically if you are doing alot of ascending youll be using ascenders .... The main use of ascending a rope with a climbing belay device is in an emergency

Either you have fallen off a traverse or overhang and need to ascend the single strand, or you missed the anchors on rap and need to ascend double strands ... Or some other self rescue situation

The alpine smart performs this emergency duty much better a prussic or the guide/reverso in autoblock ... It pulls through much easier ... However the transition from a rappel situation is one step more complicated

Realistically on a double 10mm+ rap, you are likely going to have a biatch of a time using you guide/reverso to ascend the rope, the friction sucks ...

Now there is a VERY simple rap procedure for parties where they the rap leader can ascend a single rope if he gets into trouble and be redundant on rap

Simply put the rope through the chains normally and fix it with a clove to the anchor

This way is theres any issue the rap leader can re-ascent a single strand which is always easier with a device ... Can be put on belay if needed ... And is fully redundant on the rap as the first one down

Once the rap route is identified and edges protected ... The last one down takes out the clove

It takes an extra 10 sec or so total

Why no one takes this simple easy precaution i have no idea

;)

bearbreeder wrote:The main use of ascending a rope with a climbing belay device is in an emergency

Hmm, I´ve never ascended a climbing rope in an emergency in 45 years of climbing. I´ve been up thousands of meters deliberately using a GriGri though since its by far the best way to be able to both ascend and descend a rope.

rgold wrote:Jim's recounting of the UP's handling corresponds to my experience and I can see why it might not grab if unattended on a soft top-rope fall. As for needing a strong tug, I guess that is in the eye (or hand) of the tugger, but I think most people who use it don't feel that they are really tugging at all, they're just holding on to the brake strand and the thing clicks into position. For example, you can accidentally lock it up when pumping slack out if you keep your brake hand down too far, and that doesn't constitute much of a tug. The UP works quite well as an ascender as long as you just want to ascend. You don't have to unlock it to pull rope through it if you are taking in; the locking action prevents paying out. After photographing on rappel, I've used it and nothing else to ascend an 80 degree slab twenty or thirty feet back to the anchor, just pulling rope through the device and walking my feet up, just as you might do with a Grigri. If you were free-hanging you'd need a prussik for a footloop of course. It would be very hard to disengage the UP while hanging on it if you wanted to move down though. The TRE was an excellent device that I was totally happy with when new. However, the critical crossbar wore significantly and relatively rapidly and as it did, the amount of friction obtainable declined until it was really no longer the same device. Fix the wear problems and it would compete for the best assisted-braking device out there.

You do not have to disengage the UP's lock to descend, just push down on the orange lever and rappel. I generally rappel in autolock mode rather than the reduced friction mode even though it twists the rope more. Or am I missing something about your setup?

One advantage of the UP it that you can easily pull in rope while the device is locked. I regularly belay followers with the device locked all the time.

If mountain project had a follow button, I would follow Jim, rgold and bearbreeder all of whom post very usefull information.

climber pat wrote: You do not have to disengage the UP's lock to descend, just push down on the orange lever and rappel.

Yes right, poor writing on my part. I was thinking of Jim's "downside" comment about having to release the device for use as an ascender. You would have to release it to use it as the lead lead ascender in a two-"clamp" system, but don't have to release it if it is the bottom "clamp." Same basic usage as a Grigri.

I've never had to ascend a rope because of hanging on overhanging ground while climbing, but I (or someone else in my party) have had to ascend rappel lines twice in my 56 years of climbing to free a stuck rappel, once in terrifying conditions---account at supertopo.com/climbers-foru…. Having the UP in that situation would have made it far easier and quicker.

Actually, I've hung rappels three times, but the third time required climbing back up the rappel route because the ropes had already come free of the anchors and couldn't be trusted for ascending. That story is part of supertopo.com/tr/A-Week-in-….

I know others who haven't been so lucky and have had to reascend rap lines quite a bit more than I have in fewer years of climbing. The potential is there, and unless you're on a big wall you won't have ascenders. If you have an ATC or Reverso guide style device, you can transition to ascending mode relatively easily---see blog.alpineinstitute.com/20…. But with the UP (and presumably the Smart) you don't have to perform any tricks, just slap on the leading friction knot and reverse directions...

Jim Titt wrote: Hmm, I´ve never ascended a climbing rope in an emergency in 45 years of climbing. I´ve been up thousands of meters deliberately using a GriGri though since its by far the best way to be able to both ascend and descend a rope.

If ur setting routes sure

But them most climbers dont do that ... Nor do they do single strand raps as evidenced by the threads on strand blocking where many MPer indicated it wasnt a good idea for some reason

The closest i suspect many climbers will ever use a grigri as an ascender is for TR solo (not recommended) or boinking up the rope

Besides it doesnt handle dual strand raps or half ropes

;)

rgold wrote: Yes right, poor writing on my part. I was thinking of Jim's "downside" comment about having to release the device for use as an ascender. You would have to release it to use it as the lead lead ascender in a two-"clamp" system, but don't have to release it if it is the bottom "clamp." Same basic usage as a Grigri. I've never had to ascend a rope because of hanging on overhanging ground while climbing, but I (or someone else in my party) have had to ascend rappel lines twice in my 56 years of climbing to free a stuck rappel, once in terrifying conditions---account at supertopo.com/climbers-foru…. Having the UP in that situation would have made it far easier and quicker. Actually, I've hung rappels three times, but the third time required climbing back up the rappel route because the ropes had already come free of the anchors and couldn't be trusted for ascending. That story is part of supertopo.com/tr/A-Week-in-…. I know others who haven't been so lucky and have had to reascend rap lines quite a bit more than I have in fewer years of climbing. The potential is there, and unless you're on a big wall you won't have ascenders. If you have an ATC or Reverso guide style device, you can transition to ascending mode relatively easily---see blog.alpineinstitute.com/20…. But with the UP (and presumably the Smart) you don't have to perform any tricks, just slap on the leading friction knot and reverse directions...

With the alpine smart on thinner ropes i would transition to autoblock for ascending

And on single strands

Its more secure and in fact easier to pull in the rope when you are standing in the leg prussic sling

The smart pulls through VERY easily in autoblock

You generally dont need to ascend a rope climbing without ascenders until you absolutely must ... i e ... Ascend or get stuck

Ultimately you need to practice in ascending a rope with whatever gear you always have while climbing or rapping

;)

rgold wrote: It does seem that with a pull-through strength of close to 600 lbf, it is pretty safe to let go of a blocked UP when rappelling on two 9.1 mm strands.

The specifications for the UP is to use with half or twin ropes Ø 7.7 ÷ 9 mm. I think that rappelling or abseiling with larger diameter ropes (double or twin) will just have more friction, however, the weight of the person will neglect going for a fatter rope. I am planning on buying a rope rated for both (single or double) to use in an UP. But I cannot find any skinnier than the 9.1-9.2. My question is this: Have any of you used the UP on double rope with something fatter than 9.0 for other thing than the rappelling/abseiling?

Any help or comment will be appreciated.

Luis Colon-Colon wrote: Have any of you used the UP on double rope with something fatter than 9.0 for other thing than the rappelling/abseiling? Any help or comment will be appreciated.

I haven't. I know a number of people who climb with single 9.8's, and they use the UP for single-strand belaying and double-strand rappelling. With thicker heavier ropes, it might be necessary to use the UP's modified rigging procedure to keep rope weight from locking the device. This technique works, but it also leads to severe rope twisting when I use with with 8.5mm ropes, and so I rarely use it; the rappel has to be both very long and entirely free-hanging.

Luis Colon-Colon wrote: The specifications for the UP is to use with half or twin ropes Ø 7.7 ÷ 9 mm. I think that rappelling or abseiling with larger diameter ropes (double or twin) will just have more friction, however, the weight of the person will neglect going for a fatter rope. I am planning on buying a rope rated for both (single or double) to use in an UP. But I cannot find any skinnier than the 9.1-9.2. My question is this: Have any of you used the UP on double rope with something fatter than 9.0 for other thing than the rappelling/abseiling? Any help or comment will be appreciated.

There are 8.9mm dual-rated ropes available, Tendon Master and Edelrid Swift to mention two.

Thanks Rgold,
Thanks Jim Titt

VaGenius wrote:This is terrible, but I gotta ask. Who doubles Colon with a hyphen as a name, and why?

At first I thought, I will not dignify the question by answering it. But then again, maybe is a legitimate question, sorry.
That’s not a handle, pseudonymous or a login or user name; that is my last name.

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