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Anyone have experience with these bolt hangers???

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Locker wrote:Is the damage caused by the painting isolated or does it somehow manage to work it's way in?
Work its way into what? The types of corrosion induced by trapping salts and other materials under a paint coating are very localized. Trapping salt under a poweder coat could result in intergranular stress corrosion cracking, leaving part of the hanger esentially cracked in half, and only 1/8" to the side of the crack the hanger might be completely unaffected. However, corrosion anywhere on the hanger will reduce the overall strength of it, so it does not matter that one section of the hanger is unaffected if another section is affected by corrosion. Serious corrosion anywhere on the hanger or bolt is a threat to the intergerty of the bolt system.


How long would it take a painted hanger before it became a safety issue, if in fact it could even become one?


Who knows? Somewhere between a few days and a lifetime. It depends mostly on the location where the hanger is installed. If you are placing hangers in the desert, painting them probably wont do jack to affect their lifespan. But if you are painting hangers next to the ocean, the paint could have a noticeable effect in a short period.

The problem occurs when harmful substances (such as chlorides) gets trapped under the paint or powder coated layer. If nothing ever gets trapped under the layer, painting the hanger dident matter. But if something does get trapped under there, then you have a problem. That is where rain can help. Frequent rain will help remove harmful residuals from the hanger. If the hanger never gets cleaned, then whatever gets stuck on the hanger might stay there forever, thus possibly accelerating corrosion depending on what exactly is on the hanger. However, rain has a harder time cleaning the hanger if there is a paint coating on it, thus coming back to the same issue, which is that the paint can trap deposits on the steel.

Of the hangers and bolts that have failed in Hawaii (304 powder coated hangers, 304 uncoated bolts), most of them were about 10 years old when they failed. However, if they failed at 10 years, that means they likely started suffering from critical corrosion problems in 3- 5 years, as corrosion is a progressive model in which the strength of the hanger will gradually reduce until failure (although not necessarily linearly).
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

20kn,

Very interesting.

Thanks!

"Work its way into what?"

The metal.

"The problem occurs when harmful substances (such as chlorides) gets trapped under the paint or powder coated layer. If nothing ever gets trapped under the layer, painting the hanger dident matter. But if something does get trapped under there, then you have a problem"

Hypothetical then:

Home, relatively controlled environment (aka garage), SS hangers, PAINT (Which kind is best?). If I rinse, then air dry the hangers and paint, should be AOK?

EDITED:

Somehow I missed seeing this part:

"It depends mostly on the location where the hanger is installed. If you are placing hangers in the desert, painting them probably wont do jack to affect their lifespan. But if you are painting hangers next to the ocean, the paint could have a noticeable effect in a short period."

I think that answers my question nicely.

THANKS AGAIN!

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804

The effect of painting stainless (like most things on forums) is greatly exaggerated. If you paint your hangers they are not going to fall apart and you are not going to die. By the time they corrode we will all be dead (of old age).
bssa.org.uk/topics.php?arti…

The Pheonix · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 60

Jim, here's the ingredients for the Rustoleum Camo Spray we use here in CT to within 2 mi of long island sound.

Data

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Brian wrote:The effect of painting stainless (like most things on forums) is greatly exaggerated. If you paint your hangers they are not going to fall apart and you are not going to die. By the time they corrode we will all be dead (of old age). bssa.org.uk/topics.php?arti…
Rubbish, 20kN has shedloads of examples and plenty of other people as well. We know how to paint stainless but keeping the coating undamaged is impossible in our application so the information on the link is useless.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
The Phoenix wrote:Jim, here's the ingredients for the Rustoleum Camo Spray we use here in CT within 10 mi of long island sound.
That´s the overcoat, the primer is an etch primer. The overcoat contains iron hydroxide which in the stainless world causes what is called rouging and is related to the oxides formed on the boundary of welds which are always a corrosion hotspot. But since the iron hydroxide is embedded in a polymer I doubt it´s really a problem. I still wouldn´t use it though since it doesn´t avoid the stagnant water problem.
The Pheonix · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 60
Jim Titt wrote: That´s the overcoat, the primer is an etch primer. The overcoat contains iron hydroxide which in the stainless world causes what is called rouging and is related to the oxides formed on the boundary of welds which are always a corrosion hotspot. But since the iron hydroxide is embedded in a polymer I doubt it´s really a problem. I still wouldn´t use it though since it doesn´t avoid the stagnant water problem.
So does that mean there's two parts to the spray paint? A primer and the ingredients I listed above? Or are you assuming some primer is used before this this spray paint? Here's the link to the data sheet, rustoleum.com/MSDS/ENGLISH/…, I don't see anything about any other ingredients or primers. But then again this is all new to me...

On a lighter note, I would have thought the Mineral Spirits and the Ti would have been a big + for the hangers... hahaha.
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Jim Titt wrote: Rubbish, 20kN has shedloads of examples and plenty of other people as well. We know how to paint stainless but keeping the coating undamaged is impossible in our application so the information on the link is useless.
Who is 20kN? Examples of what? Examples of hangers breaking because they were painted? Bullshit. Show me a link to a documented case of a hanger failing because it was painted. Anything other than that is engineers musing on the hypothetical.
The Pheonix · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 60
Jim Titt wrote: I still wouldn´t use it though since it doesn´t avoid the stagnant water problem.
Can you help me clarify this a bit? I live in the NorthEast and we camo stuff so it doesn't get chopped or cause issues in parks (eyesore).
Typically it rains often here in CT so things get wet but to date we've never really had to place a bolt in wet seepage area where we'd find prolonged wetness or stagnant water. I also notice this stuff really doesn't stick well at all to the stainless so while the bolt might be around for 20+ yrs the paint really only lasts a season or so I'm wondering really what the long term effects of having short term paint in non stagnant water area.

I'm thinking going forward a good rule for us in CT is, IF it's a wet cliff, waterstreak, or other commonly damp/wet area, do not camo SS. If its above tree line, in the sun in a typically dry area camo'ing may effect the long long term viability but likely won't to any dicernable degree.

Brian - I think Jim or someone quoted some stuff in Hawaii.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Brian wrote: Who is 20kN? Examples of what? Examples of hangers breaking because they were painted? Bullshit. Show me a link to a documented case of a hanger failing because it was painted. Anything other than that is engineers musing on the hypothetical.
Have you actually read the thread?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
The Phoenix wrote: Can you help me clarify this a bit? I live in the NorthEast and we camo stuff so it doesn't get chopped or cause issues in parks (eyesore). Typically it rains often here in CT so things get wet but we've never used the stuff or placed bolts in wet seepage area where we'd find prolonged wetness or stagnant water. I also notice this stuff really doesn't stick well at all to the stainless so while the bolt might be around for 20+ yrs the paint really only lasts a season or so I'm wondering really what the long term effects of having short term paint in non stagnant water area. To be honest I'm thinking going forward a good rule for us is, IF it's a wet cliff, waterstreak, or other commonly damp/wet area, do not camo SS. If its above tree line, in the sun in a typically dry area camo'ing may effect the long long term viability but even then, the stuff wears off pretty quickly sooooo....
Stagnant water is what the water that seeps between the paint layer and the metal is called, not the water outside! It has a problem that the salts in it become more and more concentrated and the ph value drops, it´s stagnant so has no or little oxygen which prevents the chromium producing its protective oxide barrier and the corrosion can be extremely rapid.
Can´t help with whether to paint of not, it´s unheard of over here in Euroland anyway and I don´t recommend it since it can reduce the hangers lifespan and conceals any corrosion from later users. It´s my job to make the hanger as safe as possible and last as long as possible not to worry about them being chopped.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Jim Titt wrote: Stagnant water is what the water that seeps between the paint layer and the metal is called, not the water outside! It has a problem that the salts in it become more and more concentrated and the ph value drops, it´s stagnant so has no or little oxygen which prevents the chromium producing its protective oxide barrier and the corrosion can be extremely rapid. Can´t help with whether to paint of not, it´s unheard of over here in Euroland anyway and I don´t recommend it since it can reduce the hangers lifespan and conceals any corrosion from later users. It´s my job to make the hanger as safe as possible and last as long as possible not to worry about them being chopped.
thats exactly what my boatbuilder told me, they actually get more life out of hot dipped galvanized than SS, granted its encapsulated in the frame of the boat which is soaked in salt water for 6 months a year.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
safeclimbing.org/education/…

seems like this find ought to be updated a bit
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Locker wrote:20kn, Very interesting. Thanks! "Work its way into what?" The metal. "The problem occurs when harmful substances (such as chlorides) gets trapped under the paint or powder coated layer. If nothing ever gets trapped under the layer, painting the hanger dident matter. But if something does get trapped under there, then you have a problem" Hypothetical then: Home, relatively controlled environment (aka garage), SS hangers, PAINT (Which kind is best?). If I rinse, then air dry the hangers and paint, should be AOK? EDITED: Somehow I missed seeing this part: "It depends mostly on the location where the hanger is installed. If you are placing hangers in the desert, painting them probably wont do jack to affect their lifespan. But if you are painting hangers next to the ocean, the paint could have a noticeable effect in a short period." I think that answers my question nicely. THANKS AGAIN!
If you are bolting stuff in your garage, you dont need stainless period. Carbon steel is fine for a sheltered environment. And yes, you can paint them with whatever you want as they are not in a corrosive environment.

For the nonbelievers, here are some pics of powder coated hangers that failed from chloride-induced corrosion (likely stress cracking corrosion):



There corrosions in one pic. The shackle likely failed from SCC. The top right bolt possibly failed from crevice corrosion, the bottom right likely failed from pitting and possibly crevice corrosion or SCC.






Of the hangers that have failed in Hawaii, most of them were powder coated.

Exfoliation corrosion:




Unlike painting and powder coating, anodizing aluminum helps resist marine corrosion. It actually does a good job.... until the coating is scratched off.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

20kn,

THANKS again! (You too Jim T!)

Great thread!

Love this shit!

coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55
Larry S wrote:I agree with Locker about the nut/bolt shaft crowding the clipping area with a wedge type bolt. It can prevent some motion of the biner more than usual.
Have had these hangers pin a biner. Seems they are a bit too tight.

Get what you pay for, smaller size=less material=less cost. Plus the MIC thing.
Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
20 kN wrote: And yes, you can paint them with whatever you want as they are not in a corrosive environment.
So what you are saying is it is fine to paint SS hangers as long as they are in a non-corrosive (e.g. salt air) environment?
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

Correct me if I am mistaken. But what I THINK 20kn is saying is:

"And yes, you can paint them with whatever you want as they are not in a corrosive environment."

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804
Locker wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken. But what I THINK 20kn is saying is: "And yes, you can paint them with whatever you want as they are not in a corrosive environment."
Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious. It is readily apparent what this says but I want to clarify it beyond all doubt and let others chime in if they disagree. Because you know what comes out of discussions like this... "If you paint a SS hanger it is going to corrode and break and someone will die." NEVER paint a SS hanger." Just like if you drop a biner on the ground you must ALWAYS retire it immediately or it will break and someone will die. Instead of don't paint SS hangers in a corrosive environment and retire a biner if you drop it a long distance on to a rock.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Brian wrote: Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious. It is readily apparent what this says but I want to clarify it beyond all doubt and let others chime in if they disagree. Because you know what comes out of discussions like this... "If you paint a SS hanger it is going to corrode and break and someone will die." NEVER paint a SS hanger." Just like if you drop a biner on the ground you must ALWAYS retire it immediately or it will break and someone will die. Instead of don't paint SS hangers in a corrosive environment and retire a biner if you drop it a long distance on to a rock.
Well, that´s his opinion. My opinion as an engineer:-)with vastly more experience both with stainless steel and climbing AND as a manufacturer is DON´T paint hangers.
You are ALWAYS making them potentially less safe by reducing their corrosion resistance and inspectability.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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