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Anyone have experience with these bolt hangers???

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Morgan Patterson wrote: Of course they're crap and will rot out in like 2-3 yrs cause they were made in CHiNa... Thats not to mention that they aren't even supposed to be cross loaded and thats all we do to those puppies! Hey I got a few still in the trunk kicking around if you wanna slam some in randomly along some famous trad climb. And Brian when I placed a few (and removed a few) they only cost $1.50 (plus glue $13). 90% cheaper then stainless @ retail which is $14, $6.50 price was special sale on only a single bolt/hanger combo. In all honesty though, Spraug would probably be the best to talk to about those since they were kinda pioneered up at Rumney. I know they don't use them anymore if thats any consolation.
wave bolts 1/2" at 6 bucks
wavebolt.com/order/

I cant find prices on Jim Titts twisted ones but they are metric anyways so they wouldnt work too well in a 1/2" hole
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
MJMobes wrote: wave bolts 1/2" at 6 bucks wavebolt.com/order/ I cant find prices on Jim Titts twisted ones but they are metric anyways so they wouldnt work too well in a 1/2" hole
im done with those glueins for a while... too much of a PITA. I wanna bolt and climb same day.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"Every time Locker places a bolt, a Chinese orphan develops diarrhea"...

It helps keep the market shares up on TP.

I do what I can.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Morgan Patterson wrote: Jim this is really a shame... rather then chop these bolts they should have been removed if they were glue ins. If they weren't glue-ins then you are probably confused in thinking they were hot dipped galvanized carbon steel eyebolts.
The bolts in the upper photo are in Croatia, courtesy of a well known manufacturer.
The ones in the lower photo are glue-ed in FFME bolts at Mt St Victoire in southern France which are hot-dipped forged steel bolts made for the French Federation. They were strongly supported by Helmut Microys as the solution to corrosion failures in tropical sea cliffs and nearly made it into the UIAA standard but others saw sense! (Helmut Microys was the AAC rep to the UIAA by the way).
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Jim Titt wrote: They were strongly supported by Helmut Microys as the solution to corrosion failures in tropical sea cliffs and nearly made it into the UIAA standard but others saw sense! (Helmut Microys was the AAC rep to the UIAA by the way).
sounds like our own USDA and FDA!
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Morgan Patterson wrote: im done with those glueins for a while... too much of a PITA. I wanna bolt and climb same day.
Jim's 12mm bolts worked fine in a 1/2in hole. The only downside was there wasn't an interference fit so they didn't work on overhanging stuff. 12mm SDS bits are much easier to find in the states these days so it's a bit of a moot point. Jim's swamped with Euro orders for his bolts so I'm not sure US availability is good right now. ClimbTech has taken over the Wave Bolts in the USA and it's a nice product as well.

If you use the right glue you can be climbing on your routes within the hour. I use Epcon A7 Glue and average time to cure is around 35minutes or so depending on temps. I wait an hour after gluing - a good time to clean up the gear and dust the route off again. Iv'e gotten to where I can bolt a vertical route with glue ins nearly as fast as I could with SS mech bolts. I take a bit more time per hole cleaning and then a bit more time being clean with my glue gun. Maybe 2 min per hole more max? No biggie for the quality improvement.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
mattm wrote: Jim's 12mm bolts worked fine in a 1/2in hole. The only downside was there wasn't an interference fit so they didn't work on overhanging stuff. 12mm SDS bits are much easier to find in the states these days so it's a bit of a moot point. Jim's swamped with Euro orders for his bolts so I'm not sure US availability is good right now. ClimbTech has taken over the Wave Bolts in the USA and it's a nice product as well. If you use the right glue you can be climbing on your routes within the hour. I use Epcon A7 Glue and average time to cure is around 35minutes or so depending on temps. I wait an hour after gluing - a good time to clean up the gear and dust the route off again. Iv'e gotten to where I can bolt a vertical route with glue ins nearly as fast as I could with SS mech bolts. I take a bit more time per hole cleaning and then a bit more time being clean with my glue gun. Maybe 2 min per hole more max? No biggie for the quality improvement.
We´ve changed the bolts for the USA so they are an interference fit in a 1/2" hole, we still deliver direct to the states, sent some a couple of weeks ago to some guy who´s no doubt struggling at -30° now!
We glue to the top, rap down, clean up, change our shoes and climb the route. For most glues 15-20 mins is plenty of cure time.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Jim Titt wrote: We´ve changed the bolts for the USA so they are an interference fit in a 1/2" hole, we still deliver direct to the states, sent some a couple of weeks ago to some guy who´s no doubt struggling at -30° now! We glue to the top, rap down, clean up, change our shoes and climb the route. For most glues 15-20 mins is plenty of cure time.
price compared to wave? can you beat 6 bucks?

I still dont get your post about the paint- "The damage to the corrosion resistance you do with a bit of sanding is nothing compared to the damage painting does so carry on. "
Rob Dillon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 760

Yeah, more on that please.

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"is nothing compared to the damage painting does so carry on."

That one interests me as well. If there is good reason to NOT be painting them, then by all means PLEASE explain more...

THANKS!
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885

Good to know we can source your bolts in the US Jim and that the 1/2in fit change has been made. Good stuff.

RE: painting hangers, Jim posted elsewhere on the web the below quote. I've since stopped painting my hangers and opt for matte finish SS whenever possible. From what I gather, painting the hangers provides a surface under which moisture can remain and oxygen is excluded thus speeding corrosion.

"Crevice corrosion and it´s related problem of pitting are common in coated stainless steel products and really anyone using this sort of coated hanger is asking for trouble. In order to get good adhesion of the coating it is nescessary to destroy the oxide coating with some kind of etch primer, thus removing the stainless steel´s protective barrier. Once the coating is damaged the crevice corrosion can begin. "

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

I guess this explains why I never see a painted stainless steel boat.

Of course we are probably talking a miniscule amount of weakening on bolt hangers/glue in heads, at least I hope so since I've seen hundreds of them painted!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
MJMobes wrote: I still dont get your post about the paint- "The damage to the corrosion resistance you do with a bit of sanding is nothing compared to the damage painting does so carry on. "
As others have mentioned, the painted (or powder coated) layer can induce crevice corrosion, and promote other forms of localized corrosion. Powder coating seems to be worse, but painting can be an issue as well. In fact, the majority of the stainless steel hangers that have failed in Hawaii were powder coated. The bare stainless steel hangers last longer. The best thing you can do is to do nothing. Dont paint the hanger, dont sand it, just use it. ;)
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Back in 2010;- ".... Additionally, the Metolius powder coated stainless steel hangers (Enviro Hangers), shouldn't be used in marine or wet environments due to the same moisture trapping issues." Metolious Climbing.
Since coating conceals any corrosion preventing even the simplest visual inspection it is a terrible idea anyway.

From the surface corrosion point of view (and that´s where the other forms normally start) stainless steel depends on the extremely rapid oxidisation of chromium to provide a protective barrier. Passivating uses an acid to remove the iron particles on the surface which make up ca 70% of the material which allows the chromium oxide to form a (more or less)complete barrier. Removing the iron leaves a slightly rough surface thus the matte finish. Sanding this surface merely exposes new iron to begin the corrosion.
With mechanical polishing the abrasive removes the softer iron on the surface and smears the chromium over the resulting pits leaving a smoother surface with better corrosion resistance and a shiny surface.
It is a slow and therefore expensive job!
Electro polishing is in effect the same as chrome plating and leaves the same finish as mechanical polishing though there are arguments in the metal finishing industry about which is actually better.

There are a couple of negatives with electro polishing apart from the visual, it is generally non-selective in that the whole thing is polished so for glue-ins the chances of the glue actually sticking are considerably reduced. Hand polishing you can at least decide on which bits to polish.For hangers this is of no interest naturally.
In the real world the problem with electro-polishing is that it defies the old saying "you can´t polish a turd" and some countries appear to specialise in producing incredibly shiny objects which corrode at an astounding rate.

The golden rule of preventing corrosion in stainless is keep it clean so put it out there where the rain washes it and design so there is no-where for gunge to build up.

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"In order to get good adhesion of the coating it is nescessary to destroy the oxide coating with some kind of etch primer, thus removing the stainless steel´s protective barrier. Once the coating is damaged the crevice corrosion can begin. "

Is this an issue only when the process pointed out above takes place?

What about when blasting on a little bit of PRIMER paint? Zero etching.

???

And THANKS Jim T for taking the time to explain all of this!

These types of threads are my personal favorites.

;-)
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

what this probably stoned layman is getting is it has to do with moisture getting trapped. Its probably no big deal in a dry spot at all but paint/primer etc can make it corrode in a wet area like a sea cliff/waterfall zone.

I know that wooden boat builders dont use stainless bolts below the waterline for basically the same reason.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Locker wrote:"In order to get good adhesion of the coating it is nescessary to destroy the oxide coating with some kind of etch primer, thus removing the stainless steel´s protective barrier. Once the coating is damaged the crevice corrosion can begin. " Is this an issue only when the process pointed out above takes place? What about when blasting on a little bit of PRIMER paint? Zero etching. ??? And THANKS Jim T for taking the time to explain all of this! These types of threads are my personal favorites. ;-)
I´m not a painter! There again I´ve painted plenty of the stuff. Things like Rustoleum are etch primers with zinc phosphate or red lead as the protective pigment so who knows what the real effect is. And when you look at what´s in a typical primer then God only knows what it all does anyway.
Coloured hangers are unknown in Europe so we´ve never bothered to find a good solution apart from looking into plasma coating which has the advantage there isn´t anywhere for moisture to accumulate since it becomes part of the metal itself. Even this isn´t a wonder cure since the coaters only say it increases the corrosion resistance to that of stainless steel which didn´t help a lot.
Can´t you just use a waterproof marker of a suitable colour or not bother like us? We climbed a route a few years ago on a granite dome in Arizona, the bolts were virtually impossible to find and the only things that would see them 6 pitches up were a couple of scrawny cows who didn´t appear to have much in the way of aesthetic sensibilities.
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Jim Titt wrote:We climbed a route a few years ago on a granite dome in Arizona, the bolts were virtually impossible to find and the only things that would see them 6 pitches up were a couple of scrawny cows who didn´t appear to have much in the way of aesthetic sensibilities.
300 series especially seems to naturally "haze" over time. On, I'd guess, most rock surfaces they're low profile enough. It's the shiny plated stuff that's visible from space...

Jim, opinion on 400 series? Same issue with painting? The polished hangers really shine with a near mirror finish.

I remember that Metolius came out with that info on their powder coated hangers, but, didn't see it on their website. Hmmm.

Great info, Jim...thanks!
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Brian in SLC wrote: 300 series especially seems to naturally "haze" over time. On, I'd guess, most rock surfaces they're low profile enough. It's the shiny plated stuff that's visible from space... Jim, opinion on 400 series? Same issue with painting? The polished hangers really shine with a near mirror finish. I remember that Metolius came out with that info on their powder coated hangers, but, didn't see it on their website. Hmmm. Great info, Jim...thanks!
With limited exceptions, painting any type of stainless steel can induce corrosion. If you really want painted hangers in a wet environment you will have to look into higher grades: 904L, 317, 2205, 6%Mo 2205, titanium, ect. I am not too familiar with 400-series SS, although I suspect superferritic 400-series like SEACURE would work, although it might be too brittle.

Superferritic is going to be really expensive. Even 904L, titanium and 6% Mo SS is quite expensive. It is probably not worth it to increase your bolting cost by 3 - 5x just so you can paint the hanger.

A less optimal alternative is to use 316SS. The Petzl hanger is made from 316 stock:

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

Is the damage caused by the painting isolated or does it somehow manage to work it's way in?

How long would it take a painted hanger before it became a safety issue, if in fact it could even become one?

I've seen painted SS hangers for a decent amount of years and haven't SEEN any sort of damage caused by paint. Nothing obvious to the naked eye so to speak. Not saying it isn't there of course.

It's interesting. I personally am not overly concerned. But it does have me now thinking...

Paint or no paint?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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