Climbing an art to you?

Climbing can certainly attain art. A first ascent is like a painting; when it is complete you have the line. Not every painting is important. The act of climbing itself can be beautiful. When the body is in tune with the rock and each movement is in perfect balance it becomes meditation. If people are witness it becomes performance. Anytime the limits of the human body or mind are exposed or expanded you have art.

Alecks A. wrote: A first ascent is like a painting;

That sounds great but it's not true. The "art" in this case is pre-existent. Nature or God or whatever would be the artist, the FA'er the curator. A gallery or museum curator may have great taste and a discerning eye, but taste is not art. An FA'er may have picked a sweet line, but the line was already there. Discovery is not creation.

Alecks A. wrote: Anytime the limits of the human body or mind are exposed or expanded you have art.

So would you consider Usain Bolt an artist? LeBron? They're not. They're amazing, gifted athletes, no more, no less. And if you're calling a beautifully executed 3-pointer art, you either don't understand art, or you don't understand basketball.

Mark Paulson wrote:Discovery is not creation. So would you consider Usain Bolt an artist? LeBron? They're not. They're amazing, gifted athletes, no more, no less. And if you're calling a beautifully executed 3-pointer art, you either don't understand art, or you don't understand basketball.

Do you consider ballet art? What if the ballerina isn't performing for anyone? Are they only creating art (the dance) when someone is watching? I consider climbing an art. I also consider Usain Bolt and Lebron James artists. It's the movement of the human body in a beautiful and aesthetic way.

foxbox wrote: Do you consider ballet art? What if the ballerina isn't performing for anyone? Are they only creating art (the dance) when someone is watching? I consider climbing an art. I also consider Usain Bolt and Lebron James artists. It's the movement of the human body in a beautiful and aesthetic way.

If the ballerina is not expressing her emotions through her dance, she is not an artist but a mere athlete or a craftswoman. There is a reason people pay big bucks to see an aging prima ballerina over a young ingenue who athletically/physically may be in a better form than the former...

foxbox wrote: Do you consider ballet art? What if the ballerina isn't performing for anyone? Are they only creating art (the dance) when someone is watching? I consider climbing an art. I also consider Usain Bolt and Lebron James artists. It's the movement of the human body in a beautiful and aesthetic way.

Ballet is a culmination of the inspiration of the composer, the artistic vision of the choreographer and the virtuosity of the dancer. The purpose is to use these elements synergistically to reify an idea or concept, to express emotion, and ultimately have an impact on the audience. If after a performance a ballerina goes dancing at a club, it would stop being an artistic endeavor.

What is beautiful and aesthetic about Usain Bolt running? He runs pretty much exactly like any other sprinter. Fortunately for him, the only metric used to judge sprinting is time, so he is the "best". It's not an artistic metric, and doesn't measure artistic merit. Bolt is not a beautiful runner, he's not a meaningful runner, he's not a provocative runner; he's just a really fast runner. If success in a given pursuit can be quantified in numbers, it's a pretty good indicator that it's not art. You are certainly welcome to ascribe beauty to such acts, but it is incidental to the success of act itself. Whereas art, being free from such concrete metrics, is _wholly_ judged on it's ability to convey meaning and express emotion.

Jacob Smith wrote:As for solving philosophical quandaries, Twight and Bonatti might have something to say about that...

Twight has something to say about everything. I've read his books, they're full of self important fart sniffing.

VaGenius wrote: Climbing is art in every way that counts. A personal expression whether on a first ascent or a repeat. Simply choosing to climb is indicative of a pursuit of something, even if it's just fatuous facetiousness to fester upon fallaciously on a forum.

Art is what you make it. I like words, music, climbing, and the sensual arts. Some people like hot dog eating contests. Art is life, life is art.

I appreciate your point of view.

What a variety of posts, im not surprised because climbing is neutral and therefore its like a mirror: your inner nature at that moment(s) will reflect.

this is the case with me (maybe not you, my experience) . I appreciate the experience, the "growth" opportunity of every climbing move I make (problem, route, etc). However the energy/experience differs between climbing a already established sport route and putting up a trad FA or establishing a boulder problem. Its not that one is superior, or more artsy or more athletic, etc, etc its that I DIFFER in those moments.

Life struggles to grow in non-nutrious soil, become richer soil and more will grow/expand in you.

Mark Hudon your simple post speaks volumes I think. Maybe Im worng?

Whats up Michael! Dude Im stoked to climb at the Moc wall again! Stay in touch.

Climbing to me is a beautiful balance between masculine and feminine, football and yoga, chess and wrestling, a mararthon and a sprint, expansion and contraction. its a whole bunch of processes and experiences that my mind clumps together as "climbing". its art to me, but its also much more.

everything can be art

david barbour said: everything can be art

yes! if thats your way then yes! clove hitching can be an art, hanging belays, finding comfort when uncomfortable (for me when i first did hanging belays!), packing for the trip, opening a door, etc, etc all can be done artfully or can be done otherwise. you choose.

^
or arguably, everything is art, because everything is self-expression

jake said: If some boob indiscriminately and randomly splatters paint on a canvas and it can be considered art, then so can climbing. I personally don't think it is. With few exceptions such as ballet that are done expressly for the purpose of art, I think that physical pursuits are just that- and are separate from art. The brilliant photographs of the physical pursuits- can be art. Oddly enough, most photographs of ballet I would not consider to be art. To each his own I suppose. Certainly both points of view have merit. When I climb, it's definitely NOT art. It's embarrassing.

liar! i know someone who climbed with you and they stated otherwise.

i do totally understand your statement about splattering paint. i played with that exact idea when figuring out what "art" is, what "art" is to me. nice comparison I think.

To some, it's a science.

Others view it as a lifestyle. NTTAWWT.

Self improvement meets self flagellation.

Compulsion, certainly.

And even a 5.7 sloth is at least a minor diety in the eyes of the slack-jawed touron.

colonel mustard said: To some, it's a science

i enjoy that point of view equally. its not a coincidence that some of my good climbing friends are rocket scientists (or other types of scientists). trad climbing especially, i love seeing anchor building as an art and a science.

where does art seperate from science? what if i said there is no difference between art and science? arent they always intertwined? or does that also depend on the see'er and their true nature at that moment?

science + art (is there really a difference?) reminds me of an article in either alpinist or rock and ice a few years back about a dude (Jersey perhaps?) who used to place gear and connect them as an art form/expression.

anyone ever do this? where does the science end and the art begin when constructing anchors purposely with vibrant cord, different placement, etc as an art piece?

i only bring this up as an example/for arguments sake. thoughts?

I think the debate is really about defining art.

If you have a narrow definition of art, climbing probably isn't art. But if you have a wide definition, sure it is.

My guess is that true artists don't care how they are viewed, they produce their art from passion for it.

To me climbing is a venue for character building. Selfish? Yes. Because I want to improve myself. Nothing wrong with that. To me climbing is a path...A journey.

"In order to understand the esthetic in its ultimate and approved forms, one must begin with it in the raw; in the events and scenes that hold the attentive eye and ear of man, arousing his interest and affording him enjoyment as he looks and listens: the sights that hold the crowd—the fire-engine rushing by; the machines excavating enormous holes in the earth; the human-fly climbing the steeple-side; the men perched high in air on girders, throwing and catching red-hot bolts. The sources of art in human experience will be learned by him who sees how the tense grace of the ball-player infects the onlooking crowd; who notes the delight of the housewife in tending her plants, and the intent interest of her goodman in tending the patch of green in front of the house; the zest of the spectator in poking the wood burning on the hearth and in watching the darting flames and crumbling coals...

So extensive and subtly pervasive are the ideas that set Art upon a remote pedestal, that many a person would be repelled rather than pleased if told that he enjoyed his casual recreations, in part at least, because of their esthetic quality. "

John Dewey - Art as Experience

Aren, Sandy, Christian and Locker: thank you.

you guys are all awesome! i enjoy(ed) this conversation. I love you guys!! lets keep exploring together via the internet. we have alot we can learn here, even if what not to do or how to be (per yourself).

Something I have not seemed mentioned. When one cleans a new line could you not consider the cliff to be the canvas and the developer to be the sculptor? Or what about taking hammer and chisel to the rock which is nearly the definition of creating a sculpture in the art world.

I don't personlally condone chissling on a cliff face but for the sake of argument.

I think when someone reaches a certain level of movement/technique it is artistic in nature but not necessarily art, just as watching someone paint could be considered artistic but there movements are not art, the painting is.

jeb

Locker, I have a one year old and I would be willing to consider him an escape artist. ;)

jeb