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Trad practice without trad climbing?

gf9318 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 0

Have a friend or dog place two giant tomes a random distance apart across the room (within the range of your cams). Decide what cam will fit, then go check it out. Can be made into a drinking game.

pkeds · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 30

I disagree with Russ when he says that one should lead while plaing gear on climbs well within/below their ability. I've found in my experience that doing so results in an extremely slow progression trend. Assuming proficient at placing gear, I think leading an equal mix of climbs within ones ability and honing technique (whether focusing on moving more efficiently, how to place gear on more finicky climbs, etc) in addition to climbs that take straight forward gear but are at ones limit of climbing allows for a faster progression in overall leading/climbing ability. learning how to fall safely is an extremely useful skill that many people don't know. just my $0.02.

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800

Nobody mentioned a pseudo-lead, which is basically lead climbing but with an independent top rope belay. Of course, to do it 'right', you need two partners, one to belay you on the lead rope and one to belay you on the top rope. Obviously, one can dream up permutations which would work with a single partner (like no belay on the lead rope, but place gear and clip as if there were). But the idea of a pseudo-lead is for the lead rope to be the primary, and the top rope belay to catch you if you blow a placement, miss a clip, or if a piece of gear blows.

Have fun out there!

iceman777 · · Colorado Springs · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 60

I think rgold has it pegged , having come from a strong aid background myself this helped me more than any guide, or mentor ever could or did . I'm not bashing guides or mentors one bit btw .

The only thing I can add to rgold s advice to you is if you tr aid and use all different brands of cams , nuts , hexes . You will be a much better climber in my book , or should I say well rounded climber .

Why because you will be able to instantly tell the size of the crack in terms of different
Brands of gear , ie black metolius same as bd c-4 .75 ect ect ect and therefore will not be at a loss when you run out of c-4s and are only left with some different brand gear on your rack and several placements left to go to the top . Besides some brands are perfect tween sizes for your camalots.im not even going to get started on offsets but as you progress you will certainly run into a perfect offset placement I'm not going to give it all away but one day you will place a piece and you will immediately know why there's offset cams/nuts .and while we're at it there are several placements where a nut/tri cam is more bomber than any slcd.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

the whole lead fall while another person is TR belaying you seems like a hassle. not only do you need to find 2 people that want to waste their day doing this, but the TR belayer has to guess how much slack to have out so that the other belayer has to catch you, etc etc etc. has anybody really ever done this? i mean REALLY?

the whole TR aid thing will only really teach you how to place a piece that you can weight. it isn't going to give you much practice evaluating if the piece is multi-directional. it isn't going to give you that much practice placing the right gear the first time. it is really slow, and the bang for the buck just isn't that good.

i literally know a thousand climbers, and i don't know a single one that has used either of these methods to become proficient at placing gear. they just aren't the best use of your time.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
slim wrote:the whole lead fall while another person is TR belaying you seems like a hassle. not only do you need to find 2 people that want to waste their day doing this, but the TR belayer has to guess how much slack to have out so that the other belayer has to catch you, etc etc etc. has anybody really ever done this? i mean REALLY? the whole TR aid thing will only really teach you how to place a piece that you can weight. it isn't going to give you much practice evaluating if the piece is multi-directional. it isn't going to give you that much practice placing the right gear the first time. it is really slow, and the bang for the buck just isn't that good. i literally know a thousand climbers, and i don't know a single one that has used either of these methods to become proficient at placing gear. they just aren't the best use of your time.
You don't need 2 people you can do this a single person with say a grigri set at a safety point and stop pulling slack and use another device that if it fails will be backed up by the grigri. It isn't hard and takes little more time than anyone else leading the route who isn't great at it.

Still comes down to growing a pair and just going for it at some point, place tons of gear so you only need half to be placed right. (if all your gear is bad your going to be dead / seriously hurt)
Dan Mathews · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 0

Practicing aid climbing on TR is a very good way to learn when you don't have a partner. Do a mock lead and then clean it on ascenders. You'll be surprised what holds and what doesn't. It's a great way to learn. Just make sure your back up system involves tying off to a fixed rope at intervals. Don't just slide an ascender up a fixed line next to you.

You'll also learn how to remove heavily seated pieces, which is also very important if you don't want to lose a more experienced partner :)

Zolen Boogaerts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 115

OP, I went through the same struggles as you two years ago. I had people telling me I needed to follow 50 pitches before leading, and stuff like that. I tried at first. I had a few more experienced people show me how to place gear and build anchors. But ultimately, it would have taken me at LEAST a year to get in 50 follows. The hell with that. I'm a big boy, I'm aware of the risks. So, I said to myself, I'm smart, very mechanically gifted, I've never been unable to teach myself a skill. I'll teach myself this.

In my opinion, learning to climb trad is just like learning many other skills. Like fixing cars, the practitioners of such skills are not all special, they just practiced and/or were taught. Most mechanics are freaking idiots, but they can fix the shit out of a car. Because they learned how. They know the ins and outs. Trad climbing is no different, besides the obvious fact that you can splat if you mess up. If you care enough to practice and seek advice, then you're likely smarter than some of the people out there leading trad.

So, given that, here's what I did. I bought some nuts and a few cams, and would go to the boulder fields near my house several times a week and place gear on the ground, bounce-testing it. I read everything I could get my hands on until I knew every single knot, anchor system, accident report, and all the rest by heart. I practiced everything on the ground and at home. I would challenge buddies with more experience to stump me by handing me just a few random pieces of gear and telling me to build an anchor in this crack or that one. I made it my mission to know everything I possibly could.

Eventually, though, you just have to get on the rock. I started by mock leading on top rope and top rope aiding. When I started actually leading, I started well below my comfort zone, on 5.5 and 5.6. I sewed those climbs up, partially to protect myself, but also to get the practice placing gear. Of the two days a week I spent climbing, one would be easy trad, one would be hard top rope or sport, just to ensure I wasn't neglecting my climbing skills. When possible, I'd have experienced people follow me and check my gear. After hearing from all of them that my placements were mostly solid, I corrected the problems, and started climbing harder stuff.

Within months, I was trying some easy multi-pitch (5.4-5.5), stuff that I was almost assured not to fall on. It gave me a taste of exposure, practice building anchors that actually mattered, rope management, and belaying a second. I think one of the most important aspects of my self-training was that I promised myself I would do everything possible not to fall on gear for a year, despite knowing my placements were solid. That may sound stupid, but I have accomplished that by making sure I advance my climbing skills, and keeping my leads well within my skill level. That has given me AMPLE time to make sure I have placed thousands of pieces of gear, built hundreds of anchors, and climbed hundreds of pitches without having to actually rely on my gear. Sure, I neglected the development of a good "lead head", but sport climbing helped some with that, and, to me, the gear placement was paramount. It also taught me the value of downclimbing. If I knew I was going to fall if I tried something, I'd downclimb a few feet, make sure the gear was bomber, maybe place a second piece, look for a different route, or even downclimb to the ground.

Another thing you may want to ask is what you're trying to accomplish with climbing trad. Are you ok with being conservative for a while? Personally, I don't care about grades, except for one reason. If I can get to the point where I can lead 5.10, that means I can climb almost any mountain in the US. I figure pretty much any mountain has a route of 5.10 or less, and climbing peaks is what attracts me. I'm not too interested in doing hard routes just to do them. I like getting deep in the wilderness and climbing stuff. So for me, it's ok not to be pushing my limits and only leading 5.7-5.8 trad when I can climb 5.10-5.11. I will get to the point where I start pushing my trad leading skills, but by that time, I will have thousands of leads under my belt, and I will be supremely confident in my gear placement.

Anyway, I guess my message is to know what you're capable of, and just do it. If you're intelligent, you can teach yourself to lead trad. It's not rocket science. It's not simple, and the consequences of failure are severe and final, but it CAN be self-taught. Like someone else said, it sounds all great to say get a mentor, but they are hard to find, and we don't all have the money for a guide. Sorry about the book.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
ViperScale wrote: You don't need 2 people you can do this a single person with say a grigri set at a safety point and stop pulling slack and use another device that if it fails will be backed up by the grigri. It isn't hard and takes little more time than anyone else leading the route who isn't great at it. Still comes down to growing a pair and just going for it at some point, place tons of gear so you only need half to be placed right. (if all your gear is bad your going to be dead / seriously hurt)
this isn't a good idea. as the climber falls and lifts the belayer off the ground (which is fairly probable if it is a decent sized fall and your partner outweighs you), this is going to affect the amount of slack available for the grigri by increasing it. calculating and executing all of this is likely going to be out of the climber's pay grade, considering they aren't proficient at placing gear in the first place.

another problem - the lead climber is not only going to need to pay attention to the lead rope when they fall (ie not get it behind their leg, etc). they are also going to have to avoid the loop of top rope slack under them. again, this is going to be outside of this sort of climber's ability to assess and execute.

all of this to test 1 placement. not exactly efficient.....
Ryan Watts · · Bishop, CA · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 25

Just to add my 2c, I learned trad climbing by following pitches, having gear "explained" to me, and reading John Long's anchor book. I started leading probably before I really knew what I was doing. In retrospect a lot of the gear I placed was garbage and I'm really glad I didn't fall on it.

I did fall a few times early on and ripped pieces out. Thank god I didn't die and was able to learn from those experiences. One was a nut that was slotted for downward pull but got yanked upward and pulled. The other was a cam beneath a bulge that i should have extended but didn't as i was afraid of ledging out (which of course i did when it pulled).

They were both obviously bad placements in retrospect but at the time I didn't know what I didn't know. Relevant to this discussion though is that both those pieces would have seemed bomber to a bounce test from below but didn't hold a fall. So be careful thinking you can learn all about lead protection from aiding (obvious but bears repeating).

Also relevant is that in both cases I had backed up the piece that pulled, since I knew I was going into a section where I might fall and I knew that my gear placement skills weren't great. Obviously this isn't always possible but when you're learning definitely sew it up and back up stuff you might fall on if you can.

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

Zoolen's lengthy post above basically nails it. To reiterate, here are a few basic things that I think are really worth doing:

-- Read everything you can get your hands on about trad leading. The basic instructional books by John Long, etc. are a good place to start (don't waste your time with Freedom of the Hills...it is too general for the usual trad cragger) Then read those books again. Get obsessed...reading about this stuff should be fun. Basically memorize the information provided. Actively think about these skills, and try to understand them.

-- Practice those skills at home and on the ground. Tie knots. Go out to some outcrop to place gear and build anchors. Weight pieces just off the ground to see how they function under load (be careful not to fall on your but if they pop).

--If possible, find experienced partners to learn from. Second pitches, and look at how they do things. Ask questions, be critical. If you can't find a good trad mentor type person, and have a bit of spare cash, hiring a guide for a day to work on these skills would really accelerate the learning process

-- While learning from others, realize that your partners and even the books may not always be doing things the best/efficient/safest way either. Be able to think for yourself, and evaluate systems to decide how best to do things.

--Just start leading. Keep things really easy...like 5.4 easy. Place tons of gear. Don't fall. Really, just don't fall until you are confident in what your are doing. You shouldn't be hanging on pieces yet either; climb within the range that you can climb well on. Patience is key; work through the grades slowly. This is a process that is worth taking your time with. You will learn more by doing a wide range of 5.7 routes with a variety of styles and sometimes tricky gear, and really mastering that grade, than you will by sketching your way up a 5.10a. Aside from the fact that your gear may not be reliable at first, taking lead falls on easy trad routes is just really dangerous because of vertical or less than vertical, featured, often ledgy terrain. A 15 foot fall on an overhanging 5.11 is safe, because there is nothing to hit on the way down; a 15 foot fall on a ledgy 5.7 will probably lead to broken ankles, regardless of how good your gear is. When I started climbing trad, I made it a goal to lead 5.10- on gear before taking a lead fall or hanging on gear...and was successful. Falling on anything easier would just be too hazardous.

--Mix in some sport/TR/gym/bouldering time so that your general climbing ability does not stagnate.

--Once you've been leading for a while, and feel like you have a solid, well rounded skill set, know when it is time to start pushing it, taking falls, etc. This will probably take several years.

--Mock leads, TR soloing aid routes, weird lockoff drills in the gym, and other shenanigans really aren't worth your time. Your will spend more time figuring out all the extraneous stuff (like setting up a TR solo system) than actually learning the fundamental trad skills. Just do everything you can to actually get out climbing; that is where most of the real learning will take place. When you can't climb due to weather, location, etc, sometimes it is best to just accept that and spend time on other things.

Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415

Place a piece*, climb on.

  • if you don't like/trust it, place a second one
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

Great advise above.
When my brother and I started we hired a guide to teach us how to place gear, we already knew how to make anchors for TR. We spent the entire day on the ground except for the end we got to lead a short pitch. He showed us what to look for in a nut and cam placement. He made us place gear all along the base of the cliff and then he would evaluate it. He then placed gear along the base and asked us to evaluate it. We have to rate the gear from 1 to 5. That I found extremely useful, knowing I was able to correctly assess if pro was bomber, marginal or just plain shit. Best money I ever spent!
After that we did a couple of single pitch routes but quickly moved to multi pitch. The trick was to keep it easy. Very easy. This is the time to nail the easy classics that you won't do later on. I can't stress enough how important it is not to fall in your early trad years.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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