the danger of going Off-Route

Hey all-

The common advice is to always stay on route. It seems as though many accidents happen because people got off-route. I can see the logic in this. You might:

- end up above your grade
- end up in an unprotectable area, aka way run-out
- get major rope drage from too much ziz-zag
- never find the end

But also, I can see how a person should be able to visualize the way they want to go, beleive, and execute. Kind of find your own way. Especially with trad gear.

Have you ever read Dick Williams' commentary on this topic in the Gunks guide? He talks about throwing away your book and your "routes" and just looking upwards and climbing the rock as best you see fit. A better adeventure, and develops your instincts as a climber and leader.

Thoughts??

Russ Keane wrote:He talks about throwing away your book and your "routes" and just looking upwards and climbing the rock as best you see fit. A better adeventure, and develops your instincts as a climber and leader. Thoughts??

This is a recipe for disaster if you don't want to end up on routes "above your grade". Here in Vegas, many times you need to switch crack systems or you will be off route. Information is knowledge, but it's how you use it that makes you wise. Read descriptions, but take them with a grain of salt too.

I think route-finding is an under appreciated skill. Beginners put a lot of focus on climbing harder and learning to place gear and kind of put less emphasis on good route finding skills. Not that those other things aren't important, but as you mentioned, poor route finding can lead you into trouble. I think that until you are very comfortable with placing gear and your climbing ability, it is best to stick to using topos and reading them well. Once you have the requisite skills to keep yourself safe, then I can see the appeal of finding your own way.

Easy to do as a Gunks climber... almost all easy to moderate routes with horizontals every 6 ft or less for great gear. Try doing that elsewhere and it could really end up bad.

Seems like a lot of people these days learn to climb in a safe gym environment and then venture out into outdoor climbs already climbing at a high technical level but with no sense of what is safe on real rock in a constantly dangerous outdoor setting. I came into climbing by scrambling alone in the mountains seeking exposure and pushing myself until the point I realized I needed to get gear and take up actual rope techniques. From there it was pretty easy to learn basic trad climbing and gear placements since I already had a controlled "no fall" style of climbing and a strong lead head. I climbed trad routes for about 2 years until I bought my first guidebook and starting chasing down some of the multipitch classics around here. Even now I still much prefer to just wander up to a new area and pick out the most aesthetic lines to climb rather than what's good according to the grades in a guidebook. Sure I get in over my head but even basic solo experience lets you fully judge the situation you are in and learn to reverse moves and know when to bail.

Depends on your experience, risks of the area, and goals.

Experience: If you don't know how to self-rescue, safely and quickly bail, and read your local conditions, going off-route holds more risk for you.

Risks of the area: In the red river gorge, a climber is hard pressed to get more than three rope lengths from the ground. Thunderstorms and weather are usually very predictable. Going off route in the red river gorge has less risk than going off route in Alaska

Goals: A sport climber or boulderer getting even a little off route (the tree is out!) might mean the goal of sending a route of a particular difficulty is not met. And that is a perfectly fine goal. A trad climber or mountaineer getting off route might mean he finds the most obvious/timely/safest/exciting/aesthetic line to the summit, meeting his/her goal.

Or, you could be these guys: Mistake-fest

Russ Keane wrote: Have you ever read Dick Williams' commentary on this topic in the Gunks guide? He talks about throwing away your book and your "routes" and just looking upwards and climbing the rock as best you see fit. A better adeventure, and develops your instincts as a climber and leader. Thoughts??

Morgan Patterson wrote:Easy to do as a Gunks climber... almost all easy to moderate routes with horizontals every 6 ft or less for great gear. Try doing that elsewhere and it could really end up bad.

whats funny is that of all the crags in the US the gunks is where you see more people with guidebooks drilled out and hanging from harnesses! the kicker is most of the books are written by Dick himself who for some reason made them extra small!

route finding is easy at the gunks on the trade routes, get off those routes and you can easily go from a 5.7 to a 10+R by accident.

To further complicate the issue guidebooks are not always right or they leave out important details. The information available to climbers today though is a lot better because of online sources like MP.

How does all this apply to doing an FA?

Morgan Patterson wrote:Easy to do as a Gunks climber... almost all easy to moderate routes with horizontals every 6 ft or less for great gear. Try doing that elsewhere and it could really end up bad.

This is very far from true and potential Gunks adventurers should not be misled; it isn't at all hard to get into territory that is both harder than you anticipated and unprotected as well in the Gunks. And because of the steepness, you can find yourself running out of strength to boot. This isn't particular to the Gunks, in general, route-finding is obviously going to be harder on face-climbing routes then on routes that follow cracks and/or corners.

Another problem with face-climbing routes that don't follow cracks is that you have no way to judge whether there will be protection and if so, what sizes will be needed, so route-finding in these situations involves not only looking for the best sets of holds, but also trying to find adequate protection, which may or may not be where the best holds are.

Put all this together and there is a lot more to deal with if you leave the guidebook behind, try first ascents, or are climbing in remote areas with little or no documentation and not enough traffic to create a chalk topo painted on the rock.

With enough gear you can get yourself out of anything, even if it means going down. I say, go for it.

rging wrote:With enough gear you can get yourself out of anything, even if it means going down. I say, go for it.

Better have a bolt kit for off-route slabs, though!

Off topic - am I the only one who thinks of Rick Cane every time I read the OPs name?

If your trad climbing and 'never find the end', that is one sweet multipitch.

learn

- how to down climb
- how to bail
- how to self rescue
- place good pro when you do have it
- have a rock solid belayer that actually catches falls ... as you may not be able to downclimb to your last piece, but enough to a place where the fall is clean and fairly "safe"

from dave macleod ... someone whos down more runnout sketchy climbs than many here

;)

NC Rock Climber wrote:How does all this apply to doing an FA?

(suspecting you already know)

"The danger of going Off-Route" would be essentially the same thread as "The danger of doing a First Ascent"

Bill Lawry wrote: (suspecting you already know) "The danger of going Off-Route" would be essentially the same thread as "The danger of doing a First Ascent"

Cheers!

NC Rock Climber wrote: Cheers!

:-) ... and we in turn raise our glasses to Richard G for effectively being the first reply (just now noticed it at the bottom of his post).

I learned to climb trad so i don't need a guide book. As long as you know how to get down if you hit an area you can't make up you will be fine and can climb anywhere.

I don't believe in off route. It is a rock wall, get up whatever way you enjoy, it isn't a gym and that hold over there isn't off.

Get a guide book and find a wall section that is all within your climbing level, throw the book out, and find your own path to the top.

Going off route and coping is part of adventure climbing and the way to learn to route find.
Going off route on sport routes is horrific, I don´t clean all the cliff of loose rock when I put a route up but some climbers seem to think I do!

Russ Keane wrote:Hey all- The common advice is to always stay on route. It seems as though many accidents happen because people got off-route. I can see the logic in this. You might: - end up above your grade - end up in an unprotectable area, aka way run-out - get major rope drage from too much ziz-zag - never find the end But also, I can see how a person should be able to visualize the way they want to go, beleive, and execute. Kind of find your own way. Especially with trad gear. Have you ever read Dick Williams' commentary on this topic in the Gunks guide? He talks about throwing away your book and your "routes" and just looking upwards and climbing the rock as best you see fit. A better adeventure, and develops your instincts as a climber and leader. Thoughts??

Thoughts? Yeah, my first thought is that you're asking the wrong questions. The real key to good routefinding, especially on short cliffs like the Gunks, is not just about memorizing the book. It's about thinking like a first ascensionist. So really, you're creating a false dichotomy with this either\or. It's not "find your own way" versus "follow blindly like a sheep". The truth is, most trad climbs follow the path of least resistance most of the time. Finding the best way is often finding the route.

So learning to read the rock, and being able to visualize the way to connect features, is really the solution. Whether you get off route or not.

GO

Sometimes the rock off route could be chossy, loose holds, etc