ACE: Eldo fixed hardware application vote
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I also pulled both pins of P1 of Northcutt Start to Bastille and inspected and re-drove them. |
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Somebody must have pissed in Nate's cheerios this morning. |
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Please leave the pins alone. Many of us have had our asses saved literally by some soft iron that was hammered in by Kor or another pioneer when our gear ripped out and theirs held. Yes expansion bolts are more confidence inspiring, but Eldo is and never has been a place where climbers that are weak between the ears go to test themselves. Eldorado is a very special place because of the confidence, ability, and preparation necessary to climb there. I never want to see that change. Be ready to confront the actual challenge the rock provides in the moment you are there without giving yourself the excuse of saying someone else had it easier, or safer when they did it. That could be the greatest moment of your life and you are missing it because you are mentally off some place crying that it is harder for you than it was for them. Climbing is selfish in many ways. Given that, you climb a route because it signifies something to you and the people before you. Risk is a huge part of that equation. |
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I'm one of those long-time Eldorado climbers, more than 40 yrs now- hard to believe. I belayed some of the FFAs in the early 70s and did plenty of FFFAs in Eldorado. None of us really thought too much about any of the fixed gear - 1/4" bolts, pins, bashies, etc. Now we have no qualms about yanking old quarter inchers or even replacing the aging 3/8' bolts from the 80s. So I'm puzzled by this attitude of pins as historic. Entropy happens to everything and we need to realize that and accept it. if you want to hang on to the historic pin, take a picture, put it in the visitor center, but accept that it's not in the same condition it was on the day it was placed. If you need proof, there is an excellent series of experiments on pin placements and reliability summarized at |
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It's traditional climbing. It's not supposed to be 100% safe, that is the appeal for many people. The idea that we should remove pins because they might be dangerous is the same argument that we should remove all the loose rock in Eldo because it might be dangerous. Pins, loose rock, fixed nuts, weather, old bolts, etc., is all part of the Eldo experience. If you want it to be safe where climbers don't have to evaluate the quality of their protection, go sport climbing on any of the 1,000+ routes between Boulder and Golden. |
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The PDF's for the two pin removal applications can be seen at the below links. Listing them in this thread also as it's not real obvious how to view them when your voting. |
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Steve Levin wrote: Whether one considers them historical relics, familiar protection, or in-situ garbage, correctly assessing a fixed pin requires quite a bit of experience, and without a hammer, a bit of faith. This is all well and good for experienced climbers. I think a question to pose is: today, when most climbers start in the gym or sport climbing and few have ever placed a piton, are unnecessary fixed pins on moderate routes a false security that could lead to a beginning trad climber being killed?Well, typically, I think Steve has brought up the crux question here, or hit the proverbial piton on the head. I worry that this apparently reasonble question/concern is the beginning of a slippery slope down to the lowest common denominator. My answer to Steve's question is that it is the responsibility of "climbers who start in the gym or sport climbing" (or anywhere) to learn the skills appropriate to the climbs/areas/endeavors they undertake. In general "we" don't add bolts where natural gear is available, because we expect people to learn to place natural gear in order to safely lead these climbs. I completely agree with those who have reminded us all that climbing is inherently dangerous and you can't dumb it down to remove the danger, no mater what. I realize there is a slippery slope here but I support leaving fixed pins unless they block natural placements (or maybe you can remove them by hand....). Yes there is a danger that someone might completely trust a fixed pin, not back it up, fall, and the pin might pull and they might die. But the same can be said about any natural gear placement really..... |
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Wayne Crill wrote: My answer to Steve's question is that it is the responsibility of "climbers who start in the gym or sport climbing" (or anywhere) to learn the skills appropriate to the climbs/areas/endeavors they undertake.Humor me a bit here, but I think your answer is a bit catch-22. Suppose someone started to learn climbing exclusively at Eldo. Just how is this said person going to learn the skills appropriate for the area? You can't go around pounding pitons for practice at Eldo, so how are you suppose to evaluate its soundness? And in a larger context, pitons are sort of becoming relics anyway. New piton placement, at least in non alpine environment, is being discouraged. So how does one learn to place them. And what significant use is the skill set for a new climber besides evaluate existing pitons? It's almost like carburetors and COBOL: sure, at one point servicing carburetors and programming in COBOL were essential skills, but do we really need to artificially perpetuate their existence? Even NASCAR gave the boot to carburetors... |
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I have a question for ACE. |
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I rarely climb in Eldo so maybe I'm missing something. |
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Mark E Dixon wrote:I rarely climb in Eldo so maybe I'm missing something. If a fixed pin isn't needed for protection and is just being left in situ to decay, why isn't it just another bit of tat? Or more accurately, a piece of trash? It's not a a big deal, but I can understand why the park might want to minimize the amount of unnecessary climbing gear in place.Because there is a good chance that "tat" and "trash" you are referring to was placed by the likes of Layton Kor, Pat Ament or Jim Erickson. The park has tried very hard to preserve these routes intact as possible from these very historical first ascents. |
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ChefMattThaner wrote: Because there is a good chance that "tat" and "trash" you are referring to was placed by the likes of Layton Kor, Pat Ament or Jim Erickson. The park has tried very hard to preserve these routes intact as possible from these very historical first ascents.If the pins are so historic, then they should be documented, removed and protected rather than being left to decay and disappear. It's not obvious to me that preserving the route is the same as preserving the hardware. |
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Mark E Dixon wrote: If the pins are so historic, then they should be documented, removed and protected rather than being left to decay and disappear. It's not obvious to me that preserving the route is the same as preserving the hardware.This is the other side of the coin for sure. Definitely a point I have personally wrestled with while climbing in Eldo. I think as local climbers we have a slightly selfish form a nostalgia when it comes to these fixed pins. Most of us will clip these relics while on these historic routes, not necessarily for protection but just for nostalgia sake. Personally I get a kick out of clipping a pin driven by Kor himself standing in probably the same exact stance decades later. However, as you said Mark, wouldn't it be more historically prudent to remove these pins and preserve them in a museum away from the corrosive effects of nature??? Wouldn't more generations of climbers get to see these historical artifacts if we did that? Or would it completely take away any historical significance by taking it from its place and putting it on a shelf where climbing gear certainly doesn't belong?? This is a question I don't think there will ever be a consensus on. Some people think removing the pins will no longer offer the same experience as the FA and therefore ruining the route and the significance of the gear. While others think leaving these pieces out to erode away with time and abuse is just simply negligent. Personally if it came to a vote I would probably side with leaving them in place since they are now part of those routes I have climbed. Still not sure if that is the right answer but it's my answer. |
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ChefMattThaner wrote: This is the other side of the coin for sure. Definitely a point I have personally wrestled with while climbing in Eldo. I think as local climbers we have a slightly selfish form a nostalgia when it comes to these fixed pins. Most of us will clip these relics while on these historic routes, not necessarily for protection but just for nostalgia sake. Personally I get a kick out of clipping a pin driven by Kor himself standing in probably the same exact stance decades later. However, as you said Mark, wouldn't it be more historically prudent to remove these pins and preserve them in a museum away from the corrosive effects of nature??? Wouldn't more generations of climbers get to see these historical artifacts if we did that? Or would it completely take away any historical significance by taking it from its place and putting it on a shelf where climbing gear certainly doesn't belong?? This is a question I don't think there will ever be a consensus on. Some people think removing the pins will no longer offer the same experience as the FA and therefore ruining the route and the significance of the gear. While others think leaving these pieces out to erode away with time and abuse is just simply negligent. Personally if it came to a vote I would probably side with leaving them in place since they are now part of those routes I have climbed. Still not sure if that is the right answer but it's my answer.The past is a prison. |
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A lot of assumptions about other climbers here, e.g., Steve Levin wrote: These are good points, although I know many climbers who've been climbing decades and have never placed a pin. ChefMattThaner wrote: Most of us will clip these relics while on these historic routes, not necessarily for protection but just for nostalgia sake. Personally I get a kick out of clipping a pin driven by Kor himself standing in probably the same exact stance decades later.Steve L--(I assume there was meant to be a "don't" in your quote, based on what it was responding to) Maybe you don't know them, but I don't think most recreational climbers (and "professional" climbers of the sport climbing / bouldering type) who started climbing 20 years ago or so around here have ever placed a piton. Why would they? Chef Matt--I don't think you speak for "most of us." Nor do I, but I rarely clip pitons when good removable-gear placements are nearby. I'm guessing I'm in the majority among at least somewhat-experienced climbers, but I could be wrong. I'm picking on these stray comments to illustrate that I don't think there's anything close to a consensus about what to do about pitons in Eldo, and a lot of that may be that we don't even agree on things that may shape our view on what to do about them. (As just another random example, someone above compared pins to loose rock in Eldo. Whether that's a good analogy or not, I don't know if the poster is aware that many loose rocks have in fact been intentionally removed in Eldo, which likely has saved some lives.) My belief--pitons have basically no place in modern free climbing (especially of the moderate flavor, I can't really speak as to what the experts are doing). Remove them all, replace some with bolts, depending on other protection opportunities. I'm sure that is not a consensus view now; we'll see what the future holds. |
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pfwein wrote:A lot of assumptions about other climbers here, e.g., Chef Matt--I don't think you speak for "most of us." Nor do I, but I rarely clip pitons when good removable-gear placements are nearby. I'm guessing I'm in the majority among at least somewhat-experienced climbers, but I could be wrong.Well maybe you are right and I am jaded. Although I do see a MAJORITY of the climbers in Eldo clipping at least some of these pins WHILE I AM THERE climbing. So maybe it's just the people that like to climb the same days I do, but I always see a lot of pin clipping while in the park. |
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Steve Levin wrote: (I can't think of any Eldo moderate where the leader might "go for it" to a fixed pin and get into trouble, although I'm sure they're out there).Second pitch West Overhang. \ rob.calm |
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rob.calm wrote: Second pitch West Overhang. \ rob.calmAlso the last pitch of Ruper. And as a member of the "relatively new climber who started climbing in the gym and hasn't been climbing in Eldo that long" demographic, I've always just assumed that all fixed pins are suspect and backed them up when possible. I've also always assumed that falling in Eldo in general is a bad idea, especially when unsure of the protection. Just because someone is a gumby doesn't mean they aren't aware of it :) |
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Wayne Crill wrote:I have a question for ACE. It is my understanding that regarding new route bolt applications that official public input via applcation commentary through the ACE site is but one of a number of factors that goes into the decision of wheather to grant permission to use botls for a new FA. I have always assumed that there is actually a numerical algorythm that takes into account different factors and pruduces an apparently objective final decision re the application. Thus, overwhelming public support via voting does not necessarily guarantee bolt placement approval. Is this true? What are the formal rules regarding final decisions for this pin removal application process? Because the public has actually spoken (not here but by people who take the time to examine and vote through the ACE site). I hope(if it continues) that the current 85-90% voting AGAINST the 'fixed pin removal' for Penauts and the Bulge will be accepted by ACE as the wishes of the active park users and not 'overruled' but the subjective wishes of certain individuals in positions of power.Great question. Application vote tallies are covered in detail of section 1.8 of the ACE FHRC Guidelines. Yes, it's entirely possible that FHRC could over ride public voting on the pin removal applications but not currently probable. As Steve Levin alluded to the pin removal applications were designed in part as a canvassing tool. It's also to shine light on the pin problem, spark debate and codify the parameters of discussion. These apps, objectively, are the simplest cases possible with ample natural gear that can be placed from an ideal stance to replace the pins. Again, I encourage everyone to read Is there a future for pegs in British climbing? |
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rob.calm wrote: Second pitch West Overhang. \ rob.calmHmmm... those pins are not too bad, if I recall, and there is some pretty good trad gear about. I think as long as someone considers them supplemental, which they should, they are just fine there and nobody should get into (much) trouble. Steve Levin wrote: I think my broader point was that using a hammer in Eldo to do anything other than re-set a fixed pin should be a fairly rare event, and that if gentle use of a hammer does not get a pin out, having resort to more forceful methods probably signifies that pin does not need replacing. That is where I stand with the whole idea. Here is the thing... A wise climber is safe with judging a pin and a route. An unwise climber is unsafe either way. If a pin is obviously bad, sure, replace it. If a pin is not obviously bad, and has to be funked out to check it, then perhaps we should question ourselves about the nature of our sport and where paternalism fits in. I am hearing a back-track of "the park owns this and wants it." No - maybe a person who works for the park wants it, but the park is not that person, nor is he the park, and ACE was not intended to be the minion of the park, it was intended to be the climbers' voice there in a 2-way relationship. And the legitimacy of the organization rests upon it's representation of the community's voice within the bounds of the founding documents. Dictating to the community what the park wants is not the charter. |