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rgold wrote:There is no mention that I can find in the CT instructions banning single-strand rappelling, and the instructions for the Click Up (the single-rope version of the Alpine Up) actually depict single-stand rappelling and do not contain any warnings about doing it on 9mm ropes. That said, if I was doing a lot of dangling and drilling, I'd use a Gri-gri for that too, as Jim does. And tie it off for protracted hanging sessions to boot. Of course Jim is right, the device has to suit the climbing you do. Personally, I've tried to made it clear that I like the Alpine Up for managing half-rope belaying. The Gri-gri isn't even an option, and the Smart and Juls are notably inferior for that application. Beyond that I personally have no experience and make no claims. Jim also raises the issue of limited versatility. I think this is much more of a feature of all devices than the manufacturers are prepared to admit. The recommended rope ranges are frequently optimistic at both ends, in my opinion. Device friction is inadequate for the small end of the range and handling sucks in the large end of the range. I find this to be especially true for the Reversos and BD ATC's. I think climbers who climb in many different styles with single ropes, half ropes, and twin ropes will need several belay devices to have optimum performance in all situations.It´s down in D)Compatability on page 10. While on the subject of compatability, another is weight, when I go over the edge drilling a long route there can be regrettably 125kg+ on the rope which is why I take whippet thin climbers claims of solid lock-up with a great amount of scepticism! Even a Grigri starts to struggle at these weights with overheating being an issue and lowering with any finesse the other so over the years we´ve developed methods As with ATC ones above, for the GriGri (and Smart/Up) a karabiner brake above is the way to go. Does it matter for normal cragging? Probably not but for other stuff like self-rescue you need to know how to up the braking force or you and your buddy can have problems. When I did my instructors certificate I was the abseil pick-off victim, the combination of a wet rope and two hefty guys meant we both hit the ground hard despite four hands clamped on the rope. One learns! |
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The thing about using 2 biners in an atc guide in high friction mode is that it becomes a biatch to feed on lead |
Jim Titt wrote: It´s down in D)Compatibility on page 10.Yup, sure enough: it says Attention! The self locking abseil with a single rope is not allowed |
rgold wrote: Yup, sure enough: it says Attention! The self locking abseil with a single rope is not allowedThat´s two of you that don´t read the instructions then, hardly seems worth writing them:-) |
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Touché! But... |
bearbreeder wrote:The thing about using 2 biners in an atc guide in high friction mode is that it becomes a biatch to feed on leadCurious, but I've never had that problem when lead belaying and using 2 carabiners. I mostly use a Trango Tuber but have occasionally used other ATC type devices and have had no problem with them. I've never used the so-called guide-type devices so it's possible there is something about them that causes the problem. Rob |
rgold wrote:Touché! But... I made the error of assuming that critical problems with rappelling would be described in the graphics and/or text sections devoted to rappelling. But there is no mention in the graphics and you have to read a text section labeled "compatibility" to find the warning about locking on a single strand while rappelling. Although the user is certainly responsible for reading all the (twelve pages of) instructions, it is bad technical writing to keep critical warnings about particular activities out of the sections in which those activities are described. It is also a bad idea to use graphics that appear to transmit all necessary information pictorially and then bury additional critical warnings in text that readers are likely to consider redundant. So if it is after all worth writing those instructions, it is surely worth doing a more intelligent job of presenting the information.Agreed but by the time all the information is illustrated in cartoons the thing would look like a Captain Marvel compendium. It´s a bit odd having section B on Compatability on the first page and then another Compatability section later with more information but then it´s Italian, not a country known for the brevity of its language. At least it wasn´t written by a Chinese. |
rob.calm wrote: Curious, but I've never had that problem when lead belaying and using 2 carabiners. I mostly use a Trango Tuber but have occasionally used other ATC type devices and have had no problem with them. I've never used the so-called guide-type devices so it's possible there is something about them that causes the problem. RobI find with the atc guide and reverso 3/4 that the device can be "sticky" on 10mm+ ropes even with a single biner Which is why some people will lead belay in low friction mode with those ropes 2 biners just make it stickier IME Oddly enough i find stiffer maxims and mammuts less stickey than supple beals and tendons ... As they are less likely to bind Of course theres a madrock device that gets around this with a wire The other thing about 2 opposed biners is that its possible they may wear out the ropr faster if it squeezed the rope too much ... Jim has a paragraph and pics about it om his page bolt-products.com/Glue-inBo… 2 biners in an atc will provide more friction, but if you let go for whatever reason the rope will still zip through A smart alpine aint hands free of course ... But on thicker ropes when it slips it tends to do so slowly ... Yesterday on both rap and lowers it was locking up quite well even for AZN princesses on maxim gliders 9.9mm and edelrid 10.3mm ropes ...  ;) |
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Great thread! |
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Can´t speak for rob.calm but I´m talking about belaying/abseiling with two biners and either a 7.8mm or a 9mm where you´ll find it works perfectly. And yes, I have lead on a single 7.8 reasonably recently though not out of choice, it´s still nice to know your second knows enough to have fighting chance of stopping you and uses a device which allows him to do so. |
NC Rock Climber wrote:Great thread! One concern that I have with the alpine up and the smart is how well they perform at cramped, seated belays. Sometimes, when bringing a second, I belay straight off my harness. With these devices I worry that the autolock mechanism might not engage properly when I am seated and belaying a climber that is below me. Bearlover and RGold, what has been your experience with this?Itll work fine IME on a DIRECT belay ... As long as the handle isnt caught on anything ... And even then it takes quite a bit to release the smart in autoblock Its better than a gri gri for top belay in that regard as its quite easy to block the cam on a gri gri against the rock or various rope/webbing strands if yr not careful At the top of the nice cozy sentry box belay ... The big smile is my partner following his first 12a crack  Now if yr talking about a redirected belay ... I almost never do that with an alpine smart ... Unless you need to lower alot theres no reason to One thing to note about the smart is that it may not lock very well if you are belaying straight off your harness without a redirects .... In fact ATC is superior for handling in this configuration as it can be a biatch to release the smart when lowering in such a configuration when seated ... The atc doesnt require any levers so you can just slide the rope through ... A grigri will lock more securely on a belay off the harness sans redirect ;) |
NC Rock Climber wrote:Great thread! One concern that I have with the alpine up and the smart is how well they perform at cramped, seated belays. Sometimes, when bringing a second, I belay straight off my harness. With these devices I worry that the autolock mechanism might not engage properly when I am seated and belaying a climber that is below me. Bearlover and RGold, what has been your experience with this?The Smart belays of the harness the same as an ATC. Do you belay without a break hand with your ATC? |
Ray Pinpillage wrote: The Smart belays of the harness the same as an ATC. Do you belay without a break hand with your ATC?LOL. Yeah, Ray, I do. But you know that, and you are just bing a dick. Fuck off. Thanks for the reply, Bear. My concern, as you addressed, is the handle on the smart getting obstructed while in at an awkward / cramped belay and how this would impact my ability to hold a TR fall. |
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For those who don't know, the bolt-products link posted by bearbreeder above is Jim Titt's company. I think the material on belay device theory on that page is the best account of these topics in English. |
NC Rock Climber wrote: LOL. Yeah, Ray, I do. But you know that, and you are just bing a dick. Fuck off. Thanks for the reply, Bear. My concern, as you addressed, is the handle on the smart getting obstructed while in at an awkward / cramped belay and how this would impact my ability to hold a TR fall.Not just being a dick. Think about what you're asking. Even if the Smart doesn't lock it still builds friction the same as an ATC. If you're ATC works then so does the Smart. |
NC Rock Climber wrote: One concern that I have with the alpine up and the smart is how well they perform at cramped, seated belays. Sometimes, when bringing a second, I belay straight off my harness. With these devices I worry that the autolock mechanism might not engage properly when I am seated and belaying a climber that is below me. Bearlover and RGold, what has been your experience with this?I infrequently use my device in guide mode on the anchor, so am usually belaying the second off my harness(*) with the UP. Since I do this a lot, I've managed a whole Kama Sutra of positions along the way, none of which compromised the locking action of the UP in any way. But the UP frame does have to rotate 90 degrees as part of the locking process, so it is conceivable that something could interfere with that motion. (I don't think it could be soft tissue though, the device would somehow have to be obstructed by a rock feature---hard to imagine but that doesn't mean impossible.) Honestly, I don't think it matters that much though. The UP constrained to its non-locking orientation is still basically an ATC-XP: it has more or less the same rope path and it has pinching grooves in the same place the ATC does, so its not as if you'd be trying to hold the second without any friction if something prevented the device from rotating. I have much less experience with the Smart, as I took a fairly quick dislike to it. I think the handle would be more of a problem than anything on the UP, but don't know how realistic it is for anything to really obstruct proper operation. I am also less sure, with the handle obstructed, that the device would in fact behave like an ATC. (*) Well, not exactly off my harness. I use a snug tie-in and attach the belay device to my rope tie-in loop, not the harness belay loop, so any load from the second goes straight to the anchor by way of the tie-in strand. |
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That is actually my question: how much braking power can one generate on a smart or alpine up if the device is obstructed and not allowed to orient correctly? This would seen to be a common occurrence when belaying up a second directly off a harness. |
NC Rock Climber wrote:That is actually my question: how much braking power can one generate on a smart or alpine up if the device is obstructed and not allowed to orient correctly? This would seen to be a common occurrence when belaying up a second directly off a harness.More or less the same as an atc in a worst case scenario Ill be out with more azn princesses tmr ... After they finish twerking on rock ill see if well have time to test the varios devices Unfortunately i only have my 10mm+ ropes with me ... But well have the smart, alpine smart, atc guide and grigri 1 Itll be good practice for them to do an undirecte top belay off the harness anyways Generally if you want more secure locking youll use a grigri ... As long as the cam aint blocked .... Theres been at least one accident where such happened, and with the cinch as well I would not depend on the smart off the harness to lock up automatically without a redirect if it cant rotate ... Regardless its not hands free ;) |
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As long as the smart acts like an ATC and I can generate enough power to stop a TR fall without the locking assist, I consider it good. Again, great thread! |
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Well the good old DAV have got some figures for the larger Smart and the CT UP though both in the single version. |
