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Suspected climbing &^&%$ uses paint to mark trail and jeopardize access!?

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

we had some trail racers do this a while back for a race they were having, they marked all over the f'ing place, trees, rocks, etc. People were up in arms over it. It turns out it was biodegradable paint and is gone now. all that bitching for nothing.

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50

For all of those driving gas cars, having children, and eating meat, while at the same time getting all bent out of shape at something that actually does not harm the environment, this little gem is for you:

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

William Shakespeare

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"Sure, it's unsightly but so are the 3 foot piles of fenced in stones that are so popular in the southwest."

Which of the two uses the natural resources to mark a trail?

Which of the two can very easily be reversed?

I see a big difference between PAINTING on a rock, and stacking a few rocks.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

The AT is the longest painted trail in the USA, not the longest trail

Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349
"I actually find myself agreeing with Locker, for once, here."...

Sorry to cause you such pain.

;-)

EDITED:

Please do us both a favor and don't make a habit of it... LOL!
chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

Page 2 and not a single poster from Wyoming. Newsflash to greenie front rangers: this is Wyoming, leave your vegan Hipster ethics where they belong, in the suburbs at the REI.

I'd love to see one of you 'ethics' posers step to Dennis Horning. He was literally bolting the black hills and devils tower before you where born. He is like 5 5'', 60 some years old, and will still kick your tustafarian ass back to the coffee shop in boulder.

Don't like Wyoming? Then please, by all means stay on the front range.

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330
David Sahalie wrote: Newsflash to greenie front rangers:
Us greenie front rangers had the ORIGINAL route taggin' spray paintin' bad ass....... Harvey T. Carter.
Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70
J Q wrote: For all of those driving gas cars, having children, and eating meat, while at the same time getting all bent out of shape at something that actually does not harm the environment, this little gem is for you: "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." William Shakespeare
Your logic:

Humans impact the world negatively, so therefore there is no reason to mitigate or prevent a small negative impact.

That is a coward's response, plain and simple.

And that Shakespeare quote? I hope someone shits on your kitchen table, you get angry, and they reply "hey man don't get angry, it's not good or bad, it's all in your head."
Keith Boone · · Henderson, NV · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 492
The Cowardly Noob wrote: Your logic: Humans impact the world negatively, so therefore there is no reason to mitigate or prevent a small negative impact. That is a coward's response, plain and simple. And that Shakespeare quote? I hope someone shits on your kitchen table, you get angry, and they reply "hey man don't get angry, it's not good or bad, it's all in your head."
True, humans affect the world, but I see the point. People are quick to complain about drilling a hole in a rock or stacking them up, but don't think twice about using items from China, getting the super size meal from McDonalds or killing honey bees with their cell phones. Putting a paint on a rock is pointless when there are means that have less impact and fit better into the natural surroundings. Starting neutering people, demand people buy organic and local, and live within their means and then we can talk about climbing ethics.
Jan Roestel · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 52

Disclaimer - I was around when Zac and Dennis bolted "The Cove" and nabbed some early ascents there. After about 8 years, I left Laramie in 2004 so how things have evolved since then I don't know. I saw Zac at Lake Marie in 2006 and he mentioned they had found some new crags nearby but I didn't go off with him that day to check them out (these crags.)

My previous experience with these guys and trails to their crags - "Park here, hike towards that formation of rocks, when you get there, turn right and go up the hill to other formation." No trailmarkers at all, you just figured it out. Things change, it may have been them or someone close to them or an unrelated enthusiast "helping out." I have had "others" mar new areas and trails with the best intentions...

Anybody that has been in the Snowies knows that boulder is likely under snow from late Oct. to June so that kind of blaze is not effective.

I myself have used surveyors tape at times when initially spotting a trail and removed it once the trail can be distinguished without. My greatest concern when establishing a new area is the trail since trails cut across the landscape, are highly visible, and bring all types of people. Faint trails lead to spiderwebbing (more trampling of tundra) wide open and clear trails bring notice and a**holes.

Painting stuff other than bolt hangers is bad in my book, a cairn can be scattered back into the bushes if needed.

Toby Butterfield · · Portland, OR · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 140

Is there any reason at all to believe this was done by the crag developer, or climbers in general? Lots of outrage here that this would be considered "acceptable," but it doesn't seem like anyone actually thinks that, nor does it seem reasonable to direct the rage at Dingus without knowing if he did this.

The photo taker admits he was off-trail when he took the shot. Could be something from another user group, or something really old. Who knows?

Citsalp · · . . . CO · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 371

Sorry for the hiatus.
I'm no master decoder but it seems fairly apparent to me that this is a trail marker made by a climber (I wouldn't know if it was Dennis or someone else?) for a climbing area.

The first clue I noticed was a spray-painted "4" ending with an arrow pointing up-trail toward the crag(?), which has been named, "4 Stories".
The second was the photographer/climber's description: " Easy to find trail Markings i found after i took the wrong trail."
So, he was a bit lost it sounds (due to lack of markings down lower?), until he found his way back to "the right trail" and these markings (plural).

Granted, I'm "old-fashioned" and don't like these type of markings, at all. Cairns and written or verbal descriptions seem to work well. Guidebooks and MP.com are good venues for these descriptions if you want to touch the masses.

I couldn't possibly care who the person is or isn't or how tough others think they may be, or even why they did it. I think it's lazy, tacky junk that doesn't have a place in these areas -and that will likely bring a bad buzz to many people, including land managers.

I haven't been here yet. I was checking it out on MP and saw it. If I was on-site and saw it, I would do my best to change it.
I'm taking it's marble, like the crag. Marble is very porous and I'm betting it would be exceptionally difficult to extract/remove paint from raw marble. I hope I'm wrong.

Good to see a lot of interesting input, and otherwise.
I suppose as a present Coloradoan I shouldn't be concerning myself with Federal issues either (forest service, EPA, BLM, executive branch, et al). But with other states and federal issues surrounding me and wanting my water and gas and oil and tourist dollars, it's hard to know my boundaries sometimes.
Thanks, and take care.

colin tucker · · Monticello, UT · Joined May 2007 · Points: 35

This whole climbing area is basically a trashy environmental wreck, and really there are no good climbs there anyway, so who cares?

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
VaGenius wrote: That has value?
Not as much value as your genius vagina posts, but we really shouldn't disagree.

Who can argue with maniacally self serving fascist rants. You are right sir, and the only way is yours!

Please, just don't antagonize this one folks, he is the only MP'er on the site that has turned an online battle into a legal one.

But seriously, if you want to get the paint off there are many ways, albeit expensive and laborious.
Bodie Mccosby · · Evans City, Pennsylvania · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 5
J Q wrote: Not as much value as your genius vagina posts, but we really shouldn't disagree. Who can argue with maniacally self serving fascist rants. You are right sir, and the only way is yours! Please, just don't antagonize this one folks, he is the only MP'er on the site that has turned an online battle into a legal one. But seriously, if you want to get the paint off there are many ways, albeit expensive and laborious.
I like reading your posts cause you get mad at everyone for actually trying to talk about the thread. I mean I'm sure just about everyone on the forum agrees that the climbing community has much bigger issues than a couple of painted rocks, but not all of us can stop a nuclear melt down overnight. I do know that if everyone works at their own crag to stop rocks from getting painted and litter from gettin dropped, then we still might not have solved all the worlds problems but we will have at least done our parts. So as a newer member of this online community, I would appreciate it if you weren't such an asshole who thinks that broadcasting your awareness of bigger issues makes you smarter than the rest of us.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

Tacky. We'd all probably feel better if an arrow were routered onto a board, bolted to a post, and buried in the ground.

I like cairns but, honestly I, treat them with suspicion since they are so easy to put up and take down.

First similar spray painting I saw was for getting to Bridge Mountain at Red Rock from the back side. Black arrows on sandstone slabs. Mentioned it to the rangers but they were not too concerned: "probably a hiker trying to help others not get off route."

Saw some cairns spray painted white up on trails in northern NM. They seemed ok to me in that setting, amidst a network of logging truck roads.

If you frequent the place ... I'm on the side of cleaning it up as best you can while also putting in some kind of aesthetic sign-age. But maybe check with the land managers / owners first?

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989

Time to weigh in as a long-time Wyoming resident:

If it'll get the Forest Service to put a LEO up in the Snowies for once, then I'll spray paint every inch of rock I find.

The level of enforcement in the Medicine Bow National Forest is embarrassing. If you want to dump a truck-load of refrigerators, there are a few trailheads I can think of. Its not like anybody in a green truck ever visits.

Yes, what Zach and (I assume) Dingus are doing up there is horseshit. But as somebody else said, this is Wyoming. On the continuum of ways to screw up the land, by Wyoming standards, this doesn't even register.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

I see some mod had a delete fest last night and the title was even changed for the thread itself, WOW!

I have pages on this website where animated chicks are up in the corner rubbing their tits and taking their pants off(a video game for christs sake) but a few words and funny youtube vids in a thread are not acceptable go figure that one

Dennis Horning · · Laramie, WY · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 9,720

Horning replies from Wyoming:

A gracious thanks for all the output from elsewhere. It was entertainment.

Here is the answer provided by the 4 Stories Climbing Council: “The plant community on the land between the logging road used for walking access (only/gated) and the climbing cliff on ground level consists partly of some delicate mosses. In an effort to preserve this moss we wanted cliff users to only use the singular trail to the cliff base. Our first attempt consisted of a cairn at the junction. It failed. We added logs placed perpendicular to the road at the junction. They failed. We then dispatched with the logs and cairns and painted the graphic “4 “ with the arrow point on the horizontal arm of the 4 pointing towards the cliff trail turnoff. It works much better than the rocks and logs did to get people on the narrow almost overgrown trail.”

Some thoughts:

Magic Marker doesn’t last very long outdoors.

Most signs are made of paint on something. To paint on a board necessitates a tree cut down. Paint on a rock will kill the local lichen and for similar impacts go figure what climbers to do lichen when climbing on the rock. When we measure impacts let’s not overlook the other options?

Paints that get a daily dose of sunlight will maybe last 5 years on rock.

The photo posted here of this boulder exemplifies good surrealism, but not as good as the painting of that brilliant red apple in the sky. Yes, the paint on this boulder is much duller in real life that the photo portrays but, those looking for a turnoff mostly notice and do what our goal was.

About 25 years ago Steve Petro spray-painted red arrows on some trails at Fremont Canyon, WY. At that time he & I concurred that, “It probably was the best way to mark them.” According to M. Fredritchs Steve also painted some arrows on his routes. The gold of my routes consists in part of figuring out how to do them, so no arrows on my routes.

Most things never get saved in WY by presenting preservation ideas to an agency. But the logging road here used is closed so ATV’s will not disturb all the elk habitat created from what was once a mature unlogged forest.

In other parts of this vast USA civil servants grease the wheel that squeaks the most, whether they make any sense or not.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

This stuff really, Taginator ... no bitching, little to no effort required.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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