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Not all who belay can belay
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Trango cinch!!!!! |
bobbin wrote:Although a relative noob, this isn't the first thread on MP I've seen that devolved into grigri vs. ATC, or whatever. Grigri vs. ATC really seems to me to be missing the point about what the OP asked about, which is how do you know if you can trust your belayer not to make an error? The points that rgold and Guy Keesee made about attentiveness and education seem far more important to me than relying on one device vs. another. The question for me is, how should climbers edumacate each other to a safer standard of belaying? Other than by flaming each other on MP of course. I knew I was a noob, so I took a weekend class offered by my university's rec department, with outdoor climbing, ATC belaying with a backup set of hands, and watched by an instructor. (I was not an undergrad, but it was open to any staff.) Obviously this didn't make me experienced, but I've realized that it was likely way better than the usual half-hour gym introduction. I bet opportunities for getting instruction are more common than people realize, but how do you get people to sign up for them, when they think they learned everything about safety in the first 30 minutes of climbing? On the flip side, I talked to a Dutch woman who says you have to take weeks of classes there before they'll let you TR belay in a gym, which seems like complete overkill.there are many ways to "learn" how to belay properly and be a "reliable" belayer - you can learn from "experienced" people ... however realize that you will likely adopt their bad habits, and that being "experienced" may not mean a thing safety wise ... theres tons of "experienced" people who do stupid things, and just because hes been climbing a few days a year outside since the dynos roamed doesnt mean a thing ... you could drive drunk for decades and not kill yourself, tons of people get away with it ... same with climbing - you can learn with from "certified" people ... contrary to "experienced" people these folk have actually been tested by someone, they actually have a duty to teach you the "proper" way, and the more advanced certifications will have that person being tested on how well they take care of their clients ... however this is of course no guarantee of a "good" instructor, and some of these "certifications" may not be worth the paper the are written on ... usually the more advanced and recognized the certification, the more likely you are to get "good" instruction and have an experienced guide ... many top climbers are also AMGA/IMFGA/ACMG guides ... if you ask around you can easily find guiding services with good reviews - you can learn from an alpine, university or climbing club ... some of these may be quite good and rigorously test their belayers ... other may not so much ... it all depends on who runs it and how much priority is placed on competence and safety ... - you canSUPPLEMENT your knowledge with reading material from accredited sites (climbing mags, manufacturers, UIAA, DAV, etc), books and the blogs of recognized experienced climbers/guiding servies (steph davs, dave macleod, andy kirpatrick, AAI, etc) .... however do recognize that these could have obsolete/conflicting information, and in the case of blogs reflects the views of the climber this will give you the BASIC knowledge on how to belay "correctly" however what you need to do is go out belay over and over again on TR to start ... then when you are more comfortable you need to go out with a backup and catch clean whippers over and over again on an ATC learning a method which focuses on control of the brake hand is absolutely essential for a new climber IMO ... this is the BASIS for ALL current belay devices, including the "autolocking ones" ... think about it, theres been cases where even "hands free" the cam on the gri gri was jammed open and the climber decked/took a major fall (to all the naysayers, i would be glad to post these accidents up for you, some include MP members) ... and as with the multiple accidents i already posted up on a gri gri not locking off even when "hands free" not to mention that if youre rapping, it is absolutely essential that you learn to have total control of the rope as the most people tend to rap on dual stands with an ATC once you are confident and experienced in catching whippers ... then you are ready to start learning how to REALLY belay youll learn things like how to - give a soft catch - use ASSISTED locking devices - understand the failure modes of the device and the most common user errors with that device - closing the system - belay smoothly and not short rope the climber - be able to talk to your climber and ask/suggest what type of catch they want at what point of the climb ... there are MANY climbs out there that have both "safe" falls at some point but ledges or other hazards as well - find the best belay spot so that you dont get slammed into the wall, you dont cause a zipper, you are safe from rock/ice fall, your climber doesnt slam into you when he falls, etc - drop to the ground, run back, take in slack quickly etc ... if your climber is close to decking - understand the different top belay methods, their advantages and disadvantage - know how to tie off a belay device in a releasable manner under load - use a munter and biner brake so that if you or your partner drop their device you arent stuck - fall factors, how to mitigate large factor falls and losing control of the rope ... as well as not blowing out the gear - the impact of rope drag, angle, belay devices, dynamic belays etc on gear ... this is just the START youll also learn what things can kill you or your partner in a belay situation from 1. going out and doing it, and having the "accident" yourself ... EVERYONE who climbs enough will have this happen to them, the only question is was it just a lost of pride or did someone actually get hurt ... john long/lynn hill didnt finish their tie ins, dave macleod got lowered off the end of the rope ... MP is littered with instances of "experienced" climbers having preventable accidents ... and ANY climber who hasnt had some near miss is either a liar or hasnt been climbing frequently enough 2.witnessing an accident... nothing drives home the point of basic safety like someone else getting injured ... 3. learning from others about accidents and "best practice" ... climbers try their best not to take a factor 2 fall? ... why? ... not because most of us have taken one before and are "experienced" at it ... but because the people who taught us told that a factor 2 fall is an effing bad thing as it could blow up the anchors and kill both climbers ... 4. learning from accredited sources such as the ANAM, DAV, etc ... about the various belay accidents ... belaying, along with rapping is one of the things thats most likely to get you injured ... heres a simple search of the ANAM for "inadequate belay" ... and this is only accidents REPORTED to them, doesnt include gyms ... theres threads on MP about multiple drops in certain gyms, even on grigris publications.americanalpine… and finally youll develop your own "sketch detector" the more you climb ... if it looks sketchy then ask your partner ... if he cant give you a satisfactory answer ask them politely to change it while youre being belayed ... now this doesnt mean you should freak out about everything (locking 100 point TR anchors, deadly dyneema, triple belay loops, etc) ... but the answer should be convincing enough for you ... if not just walk away nicely ... sure you want to climb, but what is your life worth? just realize that even "experiened" climbers who have been climbing for decades have dropped people, even on grigri ... again there plenty of examples on ANAM, MP, and other fun places on the intrawebs belaying is the most important thing youll ever do as a climber ... even more than climbing itself ... as you have the life of another person in your hands ... those who dont treat it seriously are basically saying "fuck dude, i dont care about your life, i just want to look cool, pretend to know what to do ... and itll never happen to me if i go hands free ... la la la" ;) |
Buff Johnson wrote:And remember, another benefit of the gri -- it makes it so much easier to lower your partner from the gym off the end of the rope. Fall on Rock—Belay Failure, No Stopper Knot, Missed Clues, Inattention, No Hard Hat, California, Yosemite Valley National Park, Church Bowl Just before starting down, Jason remembers, “It had crossed my mind that we might have added to the rope requirement, so I yelled down, ‘Do we have enough rope?’ and Adam said something to the effect of ‘I think so’, or ‘I’m pretty sure.’ Communications were pretty sketchy because of the wind.” [At the time of the interviews, four months later, Adam and Colby did not recall this exchange.] Adam: “So now I was lowering Jason. My right hand was on the rope, which was all flaked out on the bag, and my left hand was controlling the lever of the GriGri. Colby was standing right behind me. We were joking around, having a great day. “Jason had descended until he was about 30 feet above us, with his feet approaching a little ledge. I was focusing on him to keep him from tripping over the ledge. Suddenly I felt the ‘zoom’ as the end of the rope went through my hand. I had no chance to control it. As Jason fell, his feet hit the ledge and he flipped upside down, headfirst. He was not wearing a helmet. “I was not anchored, and when I saw him falling, just on a gut reaction, I ran and dove at him, figuring I had to keep him from hitting the ground as hard as he was going to. I thought maybe I could catch him—one of those adrenalin rushes. We collided in mid-air, shoulder-to-shoulder, I think. He spun in the air, going from head down to sideways. There’s one little spot right beneath the climb that doesn’t have a sharp rock in it, about the size of a person in a fetal position, where you could land and not be crushed by sharp rocks. That’s where he landed, on his side. He knocked me senseless for a second because we hit pretty hard, but he was knocked unconscious. “Colby came running over and since Jason wasn’t moving at all, we thought he was dead. In 20-30 seconds he came to, with no memory of what had happened.” Church Bowl is 200 yards from the Yosemite Clinic. A nearby climber called 911 by cellphone. Jason was surrounded by rangers and the ambulance crew in minutes. Low cloud cover prevented evacuation by medical helicopter, so he was taken by ground ambulance to a hospital in Modesto, three hours away. He had suffered a broken hip, but luckily his head injury was minor and there were no other significant injuries. full accident report at link ... publications.americanalpine… |
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And #2, witnessing an accident, is exactly why I will always use a gri. The accident involved rockfall to the belay. Climber would be dead if not for el gri. |
bearbreeder wrote:belaying is the most important thing youll ever do as a climber ... even more than climbing itself ... as you have the life of another person in your hands ...^^THIS^^ It's not the device used that's important but the attention given to the leader. That is the issue at hand. |
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I just want to thank everyone for making this thread go 10 pages, its been really informative thanks to bearbreeder and his burning desire to keep everyone on the internet as safe as possible, I guess someone needs to? Certainly its not me! |
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Wow 10 Pages.... some good stuff to think about. I learned some stuff. |
bobbin wrote:... Other than by flaming each other on MP of course.This is the only way. I use the ATC Guide and Gri Gri Two. They both use extra words in the device model, and in combination they offer me a double redundant method to go out and really fuck someone's shit up. If you can't soft catch a whipper with a hip belay --- sketchballs !! |
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No use arguing or trying to get it across to David that there are many ways to belay safely. What the fuck do you think we did before Gri Gri's came along? Before - gasp - ATC's? OK so if you are on a multi pitch route and drop your gri gri whats your back up plan? Now you will have to use your ATC, oh you didn't bring it because you are walking off, so now what? Try thinking a little outside the box. |
Tom-o Sapien wrote:It's not the device used that's important but the attention given to the leader. That is the issue at hand.Good job Mtn. Proj! It only took 10 pages to reach this (most obvious) conclusion! But seriously, Tom is 100% right, and everyone should take note. |
Peter D. wrote:The cam may engage on its own but its not the way the piece was designed.In the interests of the factual accuracy for which Mountain Project is famed this is incorrect. |
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My first gri gri wore down in the center up strand side so badly that it got a "peep hole" and never had any slippage, not even with new sub-10 ropes. I used a friends newish trango cinch to belay him with a shiny new 9.5 and when lowering I had so much slippage that I thought I had thread the rope backwards and had to run the rope over my butt to slow the descent, scary, it was threaded correctly. |
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Jim - I'm curious what's not correct? |
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The answer is that there is preferable devices for different situations. Everyone here seems to agree that certain devices have definite benefits. A Gri-Gri's is sport. ATC, when weight counts. Reverso, when you need to be cool at the crag. On and on. But when someone is belaying at a major sport crag, like Rifle, with an ATC, that is a warning sign, period. So to the op, the ATC is a warning sign in some situations. It says that this belayer has not belayed projects very often. It says that this belayer could be an ultra bad ass, in the mountains, but not at the sport crag. If someone shows up to a mountaineering expedition with a Gri I would say the same, this person is fucking dangerous! Now you know why the trad crowd is so crazy, they can't agree on shit. |
The Phoenix wrote: Dude... read the thread, you're using the device out of spec. a 9.2 is WAY to small a rope for the 1. I can produce slippage if I try to use it with dental floss (even doubled up) so there...We knew it was out of spec. As with the theme of this thread, we were curious of the limitations of the first generation. Many people at the time were using it out of spec and telling me "it is fine", so we tested it in a controlled situation and found out that it is not fine. |
