Not all who belay can belay

I'm working hard for 10 pages here folks... Mobes lets test out this slippage factor on Chris this tomorrow? Sound Good? Bear - enojy the weekend im out!

Mike wrote: However for more advanced situations, or when the shit goes down, I am more concerned about the type of person than their skill/experience level or their belay device of choice. When the shit goes down some people freeze/freak and some people shine.

So your criteria is to have a person on hand that can revive you as opposed to not drop you? I don't think its too much to ask for both. You may want to add another piece of criteria which would be that they carry good drugs to make your extraction more enjoyable.

I've see a grigri not engage after the leader on a TRAD route didnt lengthen any runners and created a shit ton of drag on a long pitch but that was just on the lower, all I had to do was push rope through it to get them down. It got better after they unclipped a few pieces. not dangerous though, just a filler for this thread.

Mike wrote:However for more advanced situations, or when the shit goes down, I am more concerned about the type of person than their skill/experience level or their belay device of choice. When the shit goes down some people freeze/freak and some people shine. I'll take someone that can function in those moments over either an old-school traddie or a high number projecting sporto any day, even if they are less experienced or use a different device.

which brings us back to what made bearbreeder flip out when I said just about the same thing. I've known some damn book-smart folks who I wouldnt want belaying me no matter how much manufacture literature they have studied. especially when rocks fall or on runout falls, none of which one gets at THE GYM.

rging wrote: So your criteria is to have a person on hand that can revive you as opposed to not drop you? I don't think its too much to ask for both. You may want to add another piece of criteria which would be that they carry good drugs to make your extraction more enjoyable.

That's not what I meant at all, though I see how it could be perceived as such. By "more advanced situations" I was referring to situations such as: remote alpine multi-pitch, high probability of multiple falls or sketchy falls, loose rock, lots of ledges/roofs etc... I mean, your belayer can have great technique & your approved belay device, but that moment you slip unexpectedly, how are they going to react?

IMHO people that are solid are solid, even if they have minimal experience or a different belay device than you. They can do what it takes, whether it's carrying you down from a mountain or catching you when you slip climbing above a roof while a loose boulder falls towards their awkward stance & they have to pee.

I'm a small woman, and when I climb with a much heavier guy who may be taking some falls I prefer to use a Grigri. It just makes my job easier. I use it just like my ATC - i.e. I NEVER take my hand off the brake rope - but when a big dude peels off and weights the rope I don't have to struggle to hold him in place.

I had a problem with the first gen Reverso - once it had some wear the braking capacity seemed to fall off, and then holding a big climber on a lead fall became a significant challenge. I'll never have this problem with the Grigri!

I am perfectly happy to use an ATC, and I certainly take the ATC Guide along for multi-pitch, but for gym stuff I love the Grigri.

MJMobes wrote: which brings us back to what made bearbreeder flip out when I said just about the same thing. I've known some damn book-smart folks who I wouldnt want belaying me no matter how much manufacture literature they have studied. especially when rocks fall or on runout falls, none of which one gets from THE GYM.

its absolutely hilarious that you are going on about "experience" and "trust belayers"

youre the one whos teaching newbs to LET GO of the rope

If its a girl/small person that I outweigh I let them know that if the rope starts letting out too fast for comfort just LET GO of everything..

mountainproject.com/v/not-a…

its doubly hilarious as with your "teaching method' it doesnt matter who your partner is as they just "LET GO"

LOL

a bit of GYM climbing for ya ... notice the solid brake hand even on the "autolocking" smart ... no just LET GO here =P



;)

Wow - weather is great here, stop bitching about belayers and get outside and CLIMB!

Of course,

YER GONNA DIE!!!

bearbreeder wrote: notice the solid brake hand even on the "autolocking" smart ... no just LET GO here =P ;)

actually what I notice from the pic is the left hand holding the rope tightly which could cause the grigri to not engage properly.
livin on the edge!

;0

MJMobes wrote: actually what I notice from the pic is the left hand holding the rope tightly which could cause the grigri to not engage properly. livin on the edge! ;0

have you used a mammut smart before???

do you even know how it feed the rope?

do you know its failure methods?

and now you can tell its holding it "TIGHTLY" by looking at a pic there there is MINIMAL SLACK ?

have you DONE THIS CLIMB? ... do you know how close the climber is to the ground ???

do YOU give out a ton of slack when the climber is close to the ground??? ... you DO KNOW there is a BOULDER FIELD run under him???

and you DO knot its NOT a gri gri dont ya now ...

do tell me how DO you feed out the rope WITHOUT having a hand on the climber side ...

LOL

said with pure and utter contempt

;)

bearbreeder.... now now calm down a bit... no need to get all shouting and worked up. ;>)

Jon Powell really wanted to know about "how do you gauge peoples climbing skills"

How they Belay?

Communicate?

Smell??

etc...

I cross them off the list, when they get to the top of a climb (sport) and say OFF BELAY ..... then 5 min later- when that are ready to be lowered, say ON BELAY....

That is how you can die.

bearbreeder wrote: have you used a mammut smart before??? do you even know how it feed the rope? do you know its failure methods? and now you can tell its holding it "TIGHTLY" by looking at a pic there there is MINIMAL SLACK ? have you DONE THIS CLIMB? ... do you know how close the climber is to the ground ??? do YOU give out a ton of slack when the climber is close to the ground??? ... you DO KNOW there is a BOULDER FIELD run under him??? and you DO knot its NOT a gri gri dont ya now ... do tell me how DO you feed out the rope WITHOUT having a hand on the climber side ... LOL said with pure and utter contempt ;)

wait, is this thread about soft catches, grigri vs atc vs googoogaga, bad belays technique, our personal penis sizes, my tick list on mtn proj, internet gym police or just bad belayers?

why is he holding the rope so tight, doesnt look like he is feeding rope. must be squamish eh bro?

Guy Keesee wrote:bearbreeder.... now now calm down a bit... no need to get all shouting and worked up. Jon Powell really wanted to know about "how do you gauge peoples climbing skills" How they Belay? Communicate? Smell?? etc... I cross them off the list, when they get to the top of a climb (sport) and say OFF BELAY ..... then 5 min later- when that are ready to be lowered, say ON BELAY.... That is how you can die.

do it in the gym or on climbs with clean falls outside ...

have a backup belayer and take repeated unannounced falls on an ATC ... do this on several climbs ...

thats the "surest" way

the PATC did something similar 6 decades ago ...

youtube.com/watch?v=6ngvhCf…

realistically we cant do this everytime if you want to climb beyond a small circle ...so youre depending on people referring other people that they know ... word travels pretty fast of people with sketchy reputations or if they dropped people ... of course there are no guarantees

and if you climb with people neither your or your friends then your taking a real risk ... do easier climbs where you dont fall or climbing in a group and watch em belay ... watch em closely for signs they arent taking belaying seriously ... like "just let go!!!" =P

the biggest red flag IME are the people old and new who say "hey i KNOW HOW TO BELAY ... dont tell me im doing anything wrong ... im perfect !!!" ... or "yeah yeah yeah its OK .. just LET GO!!!"

theres rarely a "perfect" belay .. just like every climb can be done better, so can most belays

belaying is the most effing thing any climber will do ...if you screw up someone else could easily die ...

;)

MJMobes wrote: wait, is this thread about soft catches, grigri vs atc vs googoogaga, bad belays technique, our personal penis sizes, my tick list on mtn proj, internet gym police or just bad belayers? why is he holding the rope so tight, doesnt look like he is feeding rope. must be squamish eh bro?

lol ..

lets see a photo of you belaying with a smart little one ... DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH ONE???

how about you catching a fall with one ...

have you even used one before???

of course im SURE youll be the one who gives out a ton of slack when there a boulder field under a climber

note the boulders underneath the climber, the closeness to the ground,the climber trying to make the next clip, and the last clip at the feet

of course you would just "LET GO" =P



said with total pure and utter contempt again

LOL

;)

Mike:

It's not rocket science. It's a few very basic skills. However for more advanced situations, or when the shit goes down, I am more concerned about the type of person than their skill/experience level or their belay device of choice.

Edited to add: I've seen a grigri slip in a slow-fall situation with a less-than-attentive belayer, and got dropped when a rope slipped through a Cinch. Of course, I've also seen someone dropped with an ATC.


Yes yes, you trust those old fuddy duddies too, but if the shit when down, all things being the same, you would want your dead partner to stop your fall, so please stop holding hands and ball cupping here. There is a preferable device, and it is the one where your competent belay partner can die and you can still live. You have seen a drop on a Cinch, a drop on an atc, and no drop on a gri.

Yep, no preferable device at all, even with your own experience.

To the OP: When they show up with an ATC at a sport crag, RUN!!!!

bearbreeder wrote: the biggest red flag IME are the people old and new who say "hey i KNOW HOW TO BELAY ... dont tell me im doing anything wrong ... im perfect !!!" ;)

True.

bearbreeder wrote: . or "yeah yeah yeah its OK .. just LET GO!!!" ;)

False.

FYI, you are starting to show some interesting colors and it's getting towards embarrassing. Calm down, you can belay me already!!!!

Locker wrote:"of course you would just "LET GO"..." I'm thinking he positively would if YOU were leading. Couldn't resist. LOL!

I wouldnt be roped up with the self imposed internet safety patrol anyways, he would have been scared off by the smell of skunk way before then

MJMobes wrote: I wouldnt be roped up with the self imposed internet safety patrol anyways, he would have been scared off by the smell of skunk way before then

i tend to not rope up with intrawebbers who brag about how they teach newbs how to belay by just "LET GO" of the rope

or by people who brag about finding the "right" partners ... but dont even take the time to teach people proper brake strand control

LOL

;)

on a more serious note for those "new" MPers who might get the impression the gri gri is a "hands free" device ...

FALL ON ROCK, INADEQUATE COMMUNICATION, INADEQUATE BELAY – BELAYER NOT READY

Alberta, Canadian Rockies, Wicked Gravity Wall

On June 16, PH was sport climbing on the Wicked Gravity Wall at the Back of the Lake climbing area at Lake Louise, Banff National Park. He had done several routes and was climbing one last route to “cool down” before dark after a long afternoon/evening. After feeding the rope through the station, he neglected to inform his belayer that he was ready to be lowered and he just leaned back. The belayer was not holding the rope at the time and PH fell about 20-30 feet, striking a ledge with his feet on the way down. Eventually the Grigri belay device stopped him just before a ground fall, but he suffered a badly broken ankle. Rescuers responded in the dark and PH was lowered in a stretcher over the steep terrain and then wheeled to the ambulance in a stretcher.


http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201000502/FALL-ON-ROCK-INADEQUATE-COMMUNICATION-INADEQUATE-BELAY-BELAYER-NOT-READY-Alberta-Canadian-Rockies-Wicked-Gravity-Wall

and this is Wicked Gravity at lake louise from last year ... one of the best moderate sport climbs IMO ... just like a gym climb

And remember, another benefit of the gri -- it makes it so much easier to lower your partner from the gym off the end of the rope.

Although a relative noob, this isn't the first thread on MP I've seen that devolved into grigri vs. ATC, or whatever. Grigri vs. ATC really seems to me to be missing the point about what the OP asked about, which is how do you know if you can trust your belayer not to make an error?

The points that rgold and Guy Keesee made about attentiveness and education seem far more important to me than relying on one device vs. another.

The question for me is, how should climbers edumacate each other to a safer standard of belaying? Other than by flaming each other on MP of course.

I knew I was a noob, so I took a weekend class offered by my university's rec department, with outdoor climbing, ATC belaying with a backup set of hands, and watched by an instructor. (I was not an undergrad, but it was open to any staff.) Obviously this didn't make me experienced, but I've realized that it was likely way better than the usual half-hour gym introduction.

I bet opportunities for getting instruction are more common than people realize, but how do you get people to sign up for them, when they think they learned everything about safety in the first 30 minutes of climbing?

On the flip side, I talked to a Dutch woman who says you have to take weeks of classes there before they'll let you TR belay in a gym, which seems like complete overkill.