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Not all who belay can belay
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Maybe we are asking the wrong question. |
Jake Jones wrote: Several reasons:While the input is good... it was more rhetorical as I was hinting at the arrogance David pointed out. No one can reasonably be expected to hold the brake end of the rope 100% of the time, alive or as I point out dead. It's just totally unrealistic, a stupid concept, arrogant, and dangerous. Exactly the behavior we as climbers tend to avoid but since the tradies blindly love it so.. with might I add, the same arrogance with which they hate bolted anchors, I don't expect any reasonable arguments. And for rapping with the Gri, locker's gonna love this one, tie a LOCKER in the midpoint on one side of the anchor and rap on the other strand. Let your ATC lovin friend clean and follow. Or just pull after you are done realizing your biner is gonna get banged up and shldnt be used to whip on. |
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man I use double 10.5s just for added safety |
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I find the 10.2 to be a perfect compliment to my thong PAS, Kong 8, and 5 pound plastic helmet with 20 stickers. |
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I had a friend insist on using his rope that was too short for the climb including the lower off from the anchors once he led to the top. The result was him almost decking as I realized that he had run out of rope as I was lowering him. The GriGri made the situation easy to handle with almost all the danger removed. Had we been using an ATC the issue would likely have been an accident. While this was climber/belayer error, the fact that the autolock was available made dealing with the situation somewhat easy and not a dramatic issue. Being able to lock off the device and use two hands for something else can be invaluable, esp while there's only 12" of rope left to work with and a climber dangling 40' above a killer scree field of large boulders. |
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Had you been using an ATC you could have put a knot in the end of the rope and locked it off that way. |
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Yeah, thats real easy to do when the leader is already hanging. Or do you have 3 hands? |
mark felber wrote:Had you been using an ATC you could have put a knot in the end of the rope and locked it off that way.As David said... try doing that with 1 foot of rope (1/2 freyed by the way) while locked off with 160 lbs hanging 40' off the deck on a dramatically overhanging route with 0 possibility of the climber getting back to the wall to un-weight the rope. One slip (speaking of slipping) and you're climber is dead because you "prefer" a less safe device. And just to add insult to injury for you ATC lovers, given this whole slippage/creep issue with slippery ropes, how would you really feel about the situation while trying to keep a device locked off and trying to tying a knot, while the rope creeks through the ATC and you can't actually lock it off knowing in less then a few minutes your friend is going to deck because the rope is creeping through an atc and there's only a foot of rope left. I had a velocity 9.8 dry that would creep through my ATC when locked off on rappel or while holding climbers weight. Only the gri gri was able to securely lock that rope w/o creep. ATC = 0, GriGri = +my friend's life |
The Phoenix wrote: We are in full agreement about this... But slippage to me assumes the device is locked and the rope is slipping through (this I would love to see vid of because it doesn't exist if ur using spec ropes). The device not locking because you don't have any resistance on the brake end is, to me misuse. The Gri Gri does not require a sharp tug of force to make it lock as others have said, it requires force and some form of resistance on the brake end of the rope to trigger the cam. The report u mention above BBreeder, clearly leaves the error up to human use and that slick ropes might have contributed (and I would argue contributed because the lower the friction at the cam and increase the resistance required on the brake end to trigger the cam.) Contributed yes, caused no. Cause = belayer misused device.youve actually have multiple MPer tell you at this point that a gri gri can "slip" on a ~10mm rope ... as well as a BMC report ... you can argue about what a "slip" is ... the simple point is the grigri is not a "hands free" device ... and there are multiple accidents i posted up to prove it ... it may be misuse ... but its how some MPer have stated thats how they belay and how they teach newbs to belay by letting go of the rope The Phoenix wrote:I had a friend insist on using his rope that was too short for the climb including the lower off from the anchors once he led to the top. The result was him almost decking as I realized that he had run out of rope as I was lowering him. The GriGri made the situation easy to handle with almost all the danger removed. Had we been using an ATC the issue would likely have been an accident. While this was climber/belayer error, the fact that the autolock was available made dealing with the situation somewhat easy and not a dramatic issue. Being able to lock off the device and use two hands for something else can be invaluable, esp while there's only 12" of rope left to work with and a climber dangling 40' above a killer scree field of large boulders.close the loop ... knot the end of the rope on climbs and ropes you dont know this is basic climbing safety 101 i use ASSISTED locking devices personally ... but they are no substitute for BASIC safety procedures ... ;) |
bearbreeder wrote: youve actually have multiple MPer tell you at this point that a gri gri can "slip" on a ~10mm rope ... as well as a BMC report ... you can argue about what a "slip" is ... the simple point is the grigri is not a "hands free" devicedude READ. I agree it's not hands free, bad idea. But this whole creep thing with the GRI GRI is TOTAL BULLSHIT. An engaged GriGri doesn't slip on the rope, period end of story, if you think otherwise, PROVE IT, video tape yourself hanging on rappel with the device locked and the rope sliding through the engaged cam! Oh right... It doesn't happen that way. If there is slippage IT IS BECAUSE THE BELAYER EITHER PREVENTED THE CAM FROM ENGAGING OR WASN"T HOLDING THE BRAKE END. Every account provided on here has been folks using stupid thin ropes WAY out of spec. DUH! The BMC report you keep referring to has NOTHING to do with the gri gri being locked and the rope just slipping through the device. It's pretty clear to any climber worth their salt, it was belayer error and the slippery rope exacerbated the belayers error. The only time I've seen a rope slide in a gri is when the belayer grabs the climbers side of the rope in addition to the brake side, that unweights the cam and allows the rope to slid through. Again belayer error. Slippage in Gri is totally User Error. |
The Phoenix wrote: dude READ. I agree it's not hands free, bad idea. But this whole creep thing with the GRI GRI is TOTAL BULLSHIT. An engaged GriGri doesn't slip on the rope, period end of story, if you think otherwise, PROVE IT, video tape yourself hanging on rappel with the device locked and the rope sliding through the engaged cam! Oh right... It doesn't happen that way. If there is slippage IT IS BECAUSE THE BELAYER EITHER PREVENTED THE CAM FROM ENGAGING OR WASN"T HOLDING THE BRAKE END. Every account provided on here has been folks using stupid thin ropes WAY out of spec. DUH! The BMC report you keep referring to has NOTHING to do with the gri gri being locked and the rope just slipping through the device. It's pretty clear to any climber worth their salt, it was belayer error and the slippery rope exacerbated the belayers error. The only time I've seen a rope slide in a gri is when the belayer grabs the climbers side of the rope in addition to the brake side, that unweights the cam and allows the rope to slid through. Again belayer error. Slippage in Gri is totally User Error.I have seen a 10 slip through a GriGri. The climber took, and I lowered him without using the handle of the GriGri for a few feet before it finally caught. I did some testing later that day, and I could reproduce the slippage, but not every time. The GriGri was an old first generation, and the rope was new. from an MPer the last page just because YOU havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt happen do you use a gri gri 1 or 2 ... and what ropes? ... i also assume you ask your partner how old their grigris are and inspect them for wear before you allow em to belay you, as WORN grigris can definitely slip perhaps we should ask PETZL this question? ... should you or i do the honors? though i bet no matter what the answer some MPers will immediately call "manufacturers bullshiet warnings" dont let go of the rope an it aint an issue ;) |
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You realize that there are many things in that statement that don't make any sense and bring into question the belayer's account? |
reboot wrote: There is no such thing as a slow fall. But falling at the bolt with no slack out means the tension builds slower at the device. That has happened more than once (on both ends of the rope) in the gym to me with a Cinch (and I suspect is what happened to that Dark Side accident at the Red), which is why I don't use a Cinch any more. I've never encountered that w/ a grigri. The irony is a lazier belay (lots of slack out) reduces the chance of an auto lock device not locking.Two other things that create the slow fall effect - falling/sliding down a slab, and a traversing/pendulum fall. |
slim wrote: Two other things that create the slow fall effect - falling/sliding down a slab, and a traversing/pendulum fall.But EVEN then... IF you hold onto the brake end, the cam will engage. The only thing you need to do is apply more resistance then is required to engage the cam. The only way for the rope to slip is if the resistance of your hand holding the rope is less then the force required to activate the cam. When is it that the force to lift that cam up and engage would be greater then the resistance you can exert holding firmly with your hand? I can't think of a single instance, can any of you? Maybe if you're in a seizure? |
The Phoenix wrote:You realize that there are many things in that statement that don't make any sense and bring into question the belayer's account? Do you want to point them out and explain or should I? Okay I will since you missed them... First off how does the climber take? Or does he mean fell? Or does he mean he took, and if he took then woudln't the device be locked? SO how would he then lower them without disengaging the brake? Right... so obviously that wasn't what he meant. So first is really what did the climber do? If the climber fell and THATs what he meant... pls explain to me how/why you lower someone simultanously when they are falling without removing your hand from the rope and not letting rope flow through the device ;-) oh right. This is impossible to do and totally contraditory. This account is riddled with issues and speaks to the fact that the user is a noob and doesn't even know how to get the terminology correct. I can tell you the only time I've seen a gri gri slip is when the user tries to catch the weight with the other hand on the climbers side. Then it slips a few feet until the belayer releases (putting the weight back on the cam) and locking the rope. And sure feel free to contact Petzl... I'd love to hear or see of an actual account where a device was locked and the rope kept on sliding through. I'd gladly back off from this pedestal, I've been using gri gri for almost 2/3'rd of my life and for almost 20 years, for work, for play, for thousands of hours and NEVER has a grigri ever creeped even an inch on me when locked and I use down to 9.8. I absolutely maintain that when used properly with the correct ropes and your hand holding the brake end it's 100% everytime will lock.you realize you just called someone whose posted for years and signed up for this side many many many years ago a newb .... mountainproject.com/v/not-a… the question is not whether it will lock if you hold the brake on the rope tightly ... as long as you hold the brake the gri gri is as "safe" as any other device the question is will the gri gri lock on its OWN ... thats the REAL reason why people here use it and some go "hands free" ... and BTW ... a WORN gri gri may allow the rope to slip even when the camis locked how many MPers realistically ask to inspect closely their partners belay devices before being belayed by them ;) |
bearbreeder wrote: I have seen a 10 slip through a GriGri. The climber took, and I lowered him without using the handle of the GriGri for a few feet before it finally caught. I did some testing later that day, and I could reproduce the slippage, but not every time. The GriGri was an old first generation, and the rope was new. from an MPer the last page just because YOU havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt happen do you use a gri gri 1 or 2 ... and what ropes? ... i also assume you ask your partner how old their grigris are and inspect them for wear before you allow em to belay you, as WORN grigris can definitely slip perhaps we should ask PETZL this question? ... should you or i do the honors? though i bet no matter what the answer some MPers will immediately call "manufacturers bullshiet warnings" dont let go of the rope an it aint an issue ;)And you are correct... its a great example of why a knot in the end of the rope is ALWAYS a good idea. That would certainly would have helped with one aspect... but the solution out of the sitation was a ton of boinkin' and if anyone's tried that on an ATC it sucks and is much more difficult and more dangerous. Again no benefit. |
bearbreeder wrote: you realize you just called someone whose posted for years and signed up for this side many many many years ago a newb .... mountainproject.com/v/not-a… the question is not whether it will lock if you hold the brake on the rope tightly ... as long as you hold the brake the gri gri is as "safe" as any other device the question is will the gri gri lock on its OWN ... thats the REAL reason why people here use it and some go "hands free" ... and BTW ... a WORN gri gri may allow the rope to slip even when the camis locked how many MPers realistically ask to inspect closely their partners belay devices before being belayed by them ;)Their explanation is on the noob level... sorry maybe they've been doing it a long time too but what they stated above makes no sense in many different ways hence why I totally question their recollection of the events and their diagnosis of what occurred. If they can't tell you what occurred how can they be expected to correctly diagnose the issues? As for the locking things, I def misunderstood because at least most of what I thought I read was people claiming slippage and creep while using the device properly, and thats BS. Hands free, it'll probably lock... but I wouldn't bet my life on it or my climbers;-) And as I said before hands free is stupid. And for inspecting... if there's something noticeable about the device I'll look it over. In theory I suspect the device could wear enough that it wouldn't lock on a 10mm rope but even then I wouldn't believe it till I see it. The way the cam is designed the portion that does the locking sees very little wear. Take for instance, this splitter choss wear photo contest winner. The point where the cam action pinches the rope is barely worn (<1mm), it's for other wear points that it was put in contest.  |
The Phoenix wrote: Their explanation is on the noob level... sorry maybe they've been doing it a long time too but what they stated above makes no sense in many different ways hence why I totally question their recollection of the events and their diagnosis of what occurred. If they can't tell you what occurred how can they be expected to correctly diagnose the issues? As for the locking things, I def misunderstood because at least most of what I read was people claiming slippage and creep while using the device properly, and thats BS. Hands free, it'll probably lock... but I wouldn't bet my life on it or my climbers;-) And as I said before hands free is stupid. And for inspecting... if there's something noticeable about the device I'll look it over. In theory I suspect the device could wear enough that it wouldn't lock on a 10mm rope but even then I wouldn't believe it till I see it. The way the cam is designed the portion that does the locking sees very little wear.http://www.splitterchoss.com/2009/11/09/the-how-bad-is-your-gri-gri-photo-contest/ From the submitter: My poor old reliable belay device “Bessie” is definitely in her final death throes. In fact, I was not suprised to see that she fits practically all of Petzl’s criteria for a FAIL. Most of the sheet metal edges have been sharpened to a “Ginsu-like” keenness. The cam surface has only a few more uses til daylight peeks through from the other side. The scariest thing about my old lovely Gri-gri is that she still works. Just Barely. Every time I belay or am belayed with this device feels like I am playing with house money. Ropes slip steadily through the locked device without a STRONG lockoff. Only seasoned veterans can negotiate ropes through the maze of her razor surfaces. I wanted to retire her long ago, but my poorness and the theft of her replacement several years ago have kept her on the frontlines. This contest is my last hope. Please help me send my Bessie to greener pastures. Please. Rick’s Take: The submitter is right on when it comes to Bessie’s condition. When the friction bearing surfaces are worn to this point, it’s time to let the old girl go. I know times like this can be tough, but it’s best to be strong and do the right thing for your climbing partner.  some MPers cant be bothered to even inspect their partners knots, double backs, tie ins or if the belay biner is locked ... or closing the system cragging when was the last time some climber asked to inspect you belay device closely before you gave them a belay? climbers are notoriously cheap bastards ... theyll keep using gear much after its worn out, and probably not tell you about it ... ;) |
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Wow 8 pages. |
The Phoenix wrote: But EVEN then... IF you hold onto the brake end, the cam will engage. The only thing you need to do is apply more resistance then is required to engage the cam. The only way for the rope to slip is if the resistance of your hand holding the rope is less then the force required to activate the cam. When is it that the force to lift that cam up and engage would be greater then the resistance you can exert holding firmly with your hand? I can't think of a single instance, can any of you? Maybe if you're in a seizure?I completely agree. just pointing out 2 things that sometimes give the grigri difficulties in locking by itself. I am completely in the always-keep-a-hand-on-the-break-strand crowd. it is really easy to do with pretty much no effort, and I think of it as being respectful to the climber that I am belaying. |
