Not all who belay can belay
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I have been doing this long enough to know all about the slow fall you are talking about. Don't top rope on the gri and it won't happen, especially if you are a 13 year old girl who eats helium. |
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Well, Im certainly an old fart, in fact an older and fartier old fart then the majority of mere pretender old farts here, but I (naturally!) dont find myself and my fellow aged ones deserving of the blanket scorn recently being heaped upon us. |
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VaGenius wrote:RGold, how'd you learn about/acquire an Alpine Up?I think I learned about it originally by reading an account of one of the big trade shows. The suspicions I mentioned about the potential inadequacy of plates has kept me looking for better mousetraps. I did a little internet stalking and found the company, Climbing Technology, climbingtechnology.it/en-US… , and their page on the Alpine UP, climbingtechnology.it/en-US…. A bit more sleuthing showed that the device is distributed in the US by Liberty Mountain: libertymountain.com/product…. So I went to my friends at Rock and Snow in New Paltz rockandsnow.com/store/ and asked them to order me one. It didn't take me long to be convinced it is the best thing for handling half rope belaying, and it also provides an autolocking rappel. The good folks at Rock and Snow, although skeptical, decided to try it out themselves and almost immediately ended up buying their own. They continued to appreciate it so decided to carry it rockandsnow.com/store/filte…, probably one of the few stores in the US to have it. Warning: if you are interested: it is relatively large, heavy, and expensive. I don't think it handles at all well with ropes above 10mm. It also tends to twist rappel ropes, although in my case not as bad as the Smart, which I tried and sold. I find it to be worth these downsides, YMMV. Sorry, I can't compare it to the Kong Ghost. I know some people who like the Ghost for skinny ropes, but I don't know anyone no who has compared the Ghost to an assisted locking device. |
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The problems addressed in this thread cannot be resolved in a definite fashion. Namely, is it safer to belay with device A or device B? A belay failure resulting in an accident is a rare event so that it is impossible to do a controlled experiment in which one large group is given an ATC to belay with and a control group is given a Grigri. After a season of climbing, one could compare belay accidents in the two groups. |
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Bearbreeder is absolutely right about the correct way to use a Gri Gri. Bearbreeder even gave an example of an accident resulting from incorrect use of a Gri Gri. |
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This three part article is pretty relevant to some of the comments here. Short version: if you climb multipitch trad with a skinny rope, don't use an ATC-type device. |
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^^^^ |
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bearbreeder wrote: hold the brake and none of this becomes an issue how hard is it to keep a brake hand on?We are in full agreement about this... But slippage to me assumes the device is locked and the rope is slipping through (this I would love to see vid of because it doesn't exist if ur using spec ropes). The device not locking because you don't have any resistance on the brake end is, to me misuse. The Gri Gri does not require a sharp tug of force to make it lock as others have said, it requires force and some form of resistance on the brake end of the rope to trigger the cam. The report u mention above BBreeder, clearly leaves the error up to human use and that slick ropes might have contributed (and I would argue contributed because the lower the friction at the cam and increase the resistance required on the brake end to trigger the cam.) Contributed yes, caused no. Cause = belayer misused device. |
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VaGenius wrote:I had a beal 10+ mil that pissed through a Gri Gri like water. I got rid of both. Infrequent but not impossible.While you've got your hand on the brake end, the device is locked and under full weight of the climber and the rope is running through the device like piss??? I call BS... |
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maybe VaGinaous had a greasy rope? it is a possibility, that or there was too much drag before the anchor |
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Guy Keesee wrote:if it's stupid to just let go of the thing... how can you depend on it to work if your belayer gets knocked out by falling rock? ( i'm more worried about my partners having strokes or heart attacks ) and yes I usuly use it just like an ATC, brake hand ready... aim the rope to get more or less friction etc. But I was at Malibux and one of the youngsters was there, he had a brand new, 9.2 something, hands me his Grigri 2... after putting the rope through it I couldn't get it to "lock" upto my satisfaction, so I switched back to the ATC with gloves. It was still hard to work the rope....and stop the many falls (poor rope) I was wishing I had my old device for belaying with twins. Thanks for the clarification...First off, the 9.2 is way to small and I would not have like that setup either. I often let go of the brake end of the rope if I need to do something quickly BUT I always have contact w/ the brake end (foot stepping on rope etc, like mobes stated). This is more then enough to trigger the cam under any fall condition. As for the emergency scenarios, there are many I can come up with but they all sorta go like this, climber gabs flake, flake breaks and both climber and flake are in free fall. Belayer catches climber, rockfall proceeds to continue falling to base and kills belayer. You are still locked off on device, w/ ATC - no question you are both dead or critically injured. Here's another. Climber take massive whipper, belayer is yanked forward towards cliff and is about to smash his face into wall. Great belayer and friend maybe be able to focus enough to hold rope while face is smashed in, most will let go because our instinct is to protect ourselves above all else. Likelyhood is belay throws up arms to protect themselves from wall and easily can drop brake end. If ur using a GriGri it has already locked when its dragging belayer to wall and you cannot be dropped, with ATC second belayer drops rope, you deck. Last one, your climbing flake rips off, you don't fall. Flack plummets to base of cliff and kills belayer, you are now leading, say 10 ft above gear with a body and a gri gri on the other end of the rope. You get scurd and pump out, falling 20 ft. That fall will trigger the cam and you will have a catch. Another ending to that is you are near gear or bolt, you climb down to that pull taught on the rope to engage the cam and ease yourself onto the locked end of rope. In every one of these very real scenarios, w/ atc you'd likely be dead. |
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bearbreeder wrote: but it can slip fairly easily on a tendon ambition 10.2mm even under body weight ... ;)Nope, not buying it, prove it VaGenius wrote:I had a beal 10+ mil that pissed through a Gri Gri like water. .Nope, common Killis, you don't expect someone who has been climbing their whole life to believe this do you? I love these fairy tales, because that is what they are, fairy tales. Neither of you has seen a 10.1 piss or slip through a gri-gri. It does make for good ghost stories though. |
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I have been using an original gri gri since 1994, got the version 2 the first year it came out. Still use the original in a gym or when I need two devices. I have used the original on a rope as skinny as a 9.7 and I am currently using the 2 on a 9.2. I have also caught a fall on an 8.9 with the two. Never have I had any issues whatsover with the device not locking up or slipping once activated. I do use a HB Sherriff or a SMC stitch plate (whichever I grab first from gear box) on anything other than single pitch cragging do to versatility, but I also wonder about the veracity of gri gri failure stories as I have never experienced this first hand. |
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The Pheonix wrote:Flack plummets to base of cliff and kills belayer, you are now leading, say 10 ft above gear with a body and a gri gri on the other end of the rope. You get scurd and pump out, falling 20 ft. That fall will trigger the cam and you will have a catch.Can we debate the ethics of continuing to climb with a dead belayer? Bernie the belayer |
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As someone who has witnessed Phoenixs scenario A twice in 20 years, I agree that the Gri saved the leader from decking. |
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J Q wrote: Nope, not buying it, prove it Nope, common Killis, you don't expect someone who has been climbing their whole life to believe this do you? I love these fairy tales, because that is what they are, fairy tales. Neither of you has seen a 10.1 piss or slip through a gri-gri. It does make for good ghost stories though.I have seen a 10 slip through a GriGri. The climber took, and I lowered him without using the handle of the GriGri for a few feet before it finally caught. I did some testing later that day, and I could reproduce the slippage, but not every time. The GriGri was an old first generation, and the rope was new. I have also been lowered on a 9.2 with a first generation GriGri and my belayer never used the lever. Just because you don't believe that it can happen, does not mean that it has not happened. Proof is going to be hard to come by. I did not have a video camera when any of these things happened to me, and I never thought I would want to prove myself beyond my word. I do not expect others to document these occurrences either. Due to the dire consequences of belay failure, I do not believe that one persons experience, no matter how much experience that may be, constitutes enough statistics to be authoritative. We should all learn how to give the best belay possible, continue to learn how to belay better, and try to teach all who are willing to listen about our experiences. This means, don't take your hand off the brake strand of the rope, even with a GriGri. There is no reason, so don't do it. The easiest way to teach how to belay on TR with an ATC, commonly called the pinch and slide method, should be abandoned. There is a better way, which takes more time to learn, but it is safer. Be aware of the limitations of your chosen belay device. My two cents. |
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David Sahalie wrote: To believe that when using an ATC, you will Always have that brake hand ready for response 100/100 times, is the height of arrogance.yup... and does anyone wonder why it's trad climbers on the atc side? |
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Y'know, this issue really ain't complicated. No belay device or method is 100% foolproof. Anything people do that assumes 100% foolproofness increases the probability of an accident. As for the arrogance of assuming 100% foolproofness, there seems to be plenty to go around on all sides of the debate. |
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Hi, this will go to 10 pages............ just watch |
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Elijah Flenner wrote: I have also been lowered on a 9.2 with a first generation GriGri and my belayer never used the lever. Just because you don't believe that it can happen, does not mean that it has not happened.Dude... read the thread, you're using the device out of spec. a 9.2 is WAY to small a rope for the 1. I can produce slippage if I try to use it with dental floss (even doubled up) so there... |